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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2009 21:53:27 GMT
I look all these beautiful new swords, A.Trim/Valiant, Hanwei/Tinker, and they are all hex nut threaded tangs! I know it is practical, but what with us who like historical construction? We are either excluded from this exciting new Wave of swords or we have to mess our swords with cutting away threads, shortening the tang and then peen it... Will there be affordable new lines of good and beautiful swords like these but peened, or new unhistorical but practical method of construction will prevail on market except on more expensive sword?
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Post by randomnobody on Feb 5, 2009 22:29:48 GMT
I think the market is starting to lean toward a growing desire for easier maintenance and customization, and the only way to provide this is via threaded tang. I'm glad they've opted for a hex nut over a screw-on pommel, at least.
Ultimately, there is no loss in performance wih a properly threaded tang versus peened, but I agree that I personally prefer peened if only aesthetically.
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Feb 5, 2009 22:59:50 GMT
I think the grip areas on these single handers, at least, could use to be shortened a little, but I have learned to live with both the extra length and the nut. that little nut isn't going to stop me from buying them, but yeah, I'd prefer peened.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2009 23:02:44 GMT
The shop I'm moonlighting at still peens everything.
I like the added sense of security, to be sure.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2009 23:48:40 GMT
I think the grip areas on these single handers, at least, could use to be shortened a little, but I have learned to live with both the extra length and the nut. that little nut isn't going to stop me from buying them, but yeah, I'd prefer peened. It's not going to stop me either, but it is some extra money for getting this done, sword is worth less if you decide to sell it or something... But I agree some of the grips could use a bit of shortening, especially for my small hands. Darksword and Gen2 are still peening them, but my local retailer stopped ordering from Gen2 because of some bad experiences with their swords and were too expensive, and he doesn't order from Darsksword because their price would also be too high at his shop. Everything here is at least twice as much as in home country of the producer. Gen2 were also too expensive but they at least came well sharpened. So I'm stuck with Del Tins that are mostly plain and are begging for some customization. I ordered two weeks ago bare DT2070 blade and I'm going to have a nice viking hilt type B or H made custom for it by a local sword/knife/gun maker and both will be for a very reasonable price. That's pretty much the only way for me to get a good blade equipped with nice looking historical fittings that are not too plain.
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Post by genocideseth on Feb 5, 2009 23:51:30 GMT
It does not bother me. I also prefer peened, but threaded gives you the option of customizing it, and if you don't want it coming loose, it is nothing for a little bottle of red loctite.
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Feb 6, 2009 0:11:54 GMT
Security: I don't think peening is any more secure. The reduced rod section that is peened is no thicker (stronger) than the 1/4" threaded section anyway (provided the thread is ground and cut in, not welded on). Not to mention that I have seen peen jobs that were purely cosmetic, and when the glue was released (heated) the pommel just slid right off!!!
And if you were to drop your sword in snow, or a body of water, not to mention the cutting bottle splash which soaks your blade - Wouldn't you rather be able to take the hilt apart to make sure your tang was dry and not retaining moisture ingress. And then you'd add a new coat of oil to it / remove any rust etc. You can't do that with a peened sword. The peen could just be decaying away for the life of the sword.
An then theres the dreaded rattley cross. If it's peened, the grip is probably glued on. Which means trying to repeen it to tighten it could: a. crack the grip glue making the grip LOSER b. Crack the Grip c. Crack the cold (brittle) steel of the peen. d. Damage the tip or blade of the sword as you try to secure it for peening. e. If you've ever try to compress a cold peen you know that it's not as easy as tappety tap tap and she's done. You have to Freaking hammer the crap out of it. If the veins in your forhead don't pop you aren't going to move it.
Bottom line - I don't like peens. I love the nut assembly method. Even for postage. I can send my sword disassembled in a nice neat (strong/ rigid) tube, without quillions poking out that are likely to rub through cardboard and get damaged. I could go on even longer...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2009 0:19:16 GMT
I was the same way initially because of asthetic reasons, but I actually started to prefer the hex nut pommel for ease of maintenence and customization. I have never had one come loose yet or develop a rattle.
On my 'faireware' swords, I like a peened tang. On practical practice or cutting blades, I like the hex nut. Develop loose hardware with a peened tang, and you are going to be busting out the JB Weld, making/replacing grips, rigging it with dental floss, or having to repeen it to get it solid again. This happens with a hex nut, give it a 1/4 turn. ;D
There is nothing saying that people who like peened swords are left out of the market with new swords - its just the swords you are choosing happen to have the hex nut because these are newer innovative ideas that are currently hitting the market. There still are plenty of great manufacturers out there who peen their pommels on; some Windlass, some Lutel, Gen II, Del Tin, Darksword, A&A, Albion, etc...
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Avery
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Post by Avery on Feb 6, 2009 0:57:53 GMT
To hang on a wall and look at....... peened To you use for cutting......retaining nut
I like to clean the ones I use alot. Can't do that well with a peened tang.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2009 1:10:17 GMT
Yes, there is still enough of them. But Valiants and Tinkers are so sexy. I agree with all practical reasons, I would love hex nuts if they were accidently the historical method.
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Post by shadowhowler on Feb 6, 2009 2:03:09 GMT
Yes, there is still enough of them. But Valiants and Tinkers are so sexy. I agree with all practical reasons, I would love hex nuts if they were accidently the historical method. Meh. I don't care too much for 'historical' perfection of a sword... your not going to find that in our target pricerange anyway. Brenden makes some VERY good points above... so for me, if the sword speaks to me, I don't care if it's peened of if it's threaded, as long as it's QUALITY. However, after Brendens above comments, I'm starting to like a well done threaded tang a bit more... because there are a lot of good reasons for it. Hell... I just like good swords.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2009 2:59:01 GMT
Well its like the Vikings with Chainsaws, would they have used them if they could ........... answer yes ......... if they had capacity for hex nutting pommels back in 16th-17th centuries would they ........... probably .......... old story of italians and spanish getting german blades and putting their own hilts on (ye old custom job) .............
I agree with Brenno ......... on all those things ........... and yeah peens tight but that bit of metal holding it all together is quite thin and brittle ........ I would dare to say proper nut, well tightened before use, on a proper cut thread ......... would show up a peen ...........
Unless a person is gonna do a destructive test of two similar swords and swinging or hitting them both until ones pommel fails then I dont see an end to the debate ........ only that its good business and practical sense to have them ..........
Hey DIY Fake Peen ............. get an appropriate sided bit of steel (or even a half inch piece of straight allen key .......... heat up an end and pound it down to look like a peen, file to fit ............ STICK IT IN THE ALLEN NUT END .......... and it looks like you got a peened sword ........... tell me thats a no brainer ...........
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2009 3:14:58 GMT
Properly put together swords won't develop guard rattle. All the other points brought up have no prevelance either, as history will show that a peened tang will not show any of those problems even under MUCH MUCH more harsh conditions that backyard bottle cutting. This is to say PROPERLY DONE, shittily done either way, peened or threaded will be just that. But properly done, peened IMHO (that is OPINION) is the better choice. If customizing is such a big deal, maybe you should have gotten the sword you wanted in the first place .
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Post by ShooterMike on Feb 6, 2009 4:22:08 GMT
I'm about half and half. I love the way Albion and Arms&Armor put their swords together. But I find myself getting more VA, ATrim, CAS/Hanwei Tinkerline swords just because they are better swords for the money. Hex nut construction certainly makes it easier to make an equally good sword for less money.
That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see some new upper-looking, mid-priced sword hitting the market in the next year with peened hilts.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2009 5:40:47 GMT
Well the Tinker Viking is peened, for authenticity, not going with the interchangable blades idea ........ thats a step from tinker .......... although when you look at the peen it does convey the finality of the product ......... hey good sword is a good sword
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2009 6:27:44 GMT
Actually I'm glad the my tinkerline hanwei isn't peened. It's so much easier to fiddle with the edge when I can remove the hilt components .
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2009 10:46:45 GMT
I hope no one minds my adding a completely outside perspective...
I know nothing about European swords, but i do know the difference between peens and hex nuts. I can see the advantages of having an easy way to quickly disassemble a sword with the hex nut setup. I am sure both peens and nuts are both structurally capable enough to get the job done, so in this case its not a matter of functionality, but rather convenience vs. tradition...
With the Japanese sword, there is still the same tried and true method used now as it was for hundreds and hundreds of years. IMO we are lucky that with the Japanese sword the traditional method is still the best method today. Convenient... But most importantly they are part of the functionality of the mount... Its amazing how well they figured this all out so long ago, that we can't improve on it to this day...
With the European sword (as i see it) the peen is the traditional method, and seems to offer a very similar level of security as the hex-nut when both done properly. With all due respect to the history and tradition of the European sword and its enthusiasts, i think the advantages of the hex-nut outweigh the disadvantage of authenticity. Is there any real structural advantage to a peen over a hex-nut? When both done properly don't they both perform the exact same task? It seems that one is simply easier to remove than the other...
Sure, being true to tradition is important... So i understand that many would frown upon changing anything, and my being a total novice at this apologize for any offense caused. I just wanted to offer my take on it, seeing that i am lucky i don't have to consider those questions in my area of interest.
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Post by genocideseth on Feb 6, 2009 11:09:46 GMT
I personally prefer peened if the whole sword is done right. Mainly because it will stay the way it is for a long time. If the whole hilt is properly done, there will be no need for customization. This is exactly the case if I were to order a custom sword. It would be like customizing your kokoro Ichi. (Although it might be necessary in the long run, like a few decades form now).
BUT, on lower end production swords, I prefer threaded as they usually need customization, weather it be for their function or appearance. I personally think the Hex nut is a smarter method though, as it opens a wider range of possibilities.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2009 17:02:18 GMT
Security: I don't think peening is any more secure. The reduced rod section that is peened is no thicker (stronger) than the 1/4" threaded section anyway (provided the thread is ground and cut in, not welded on). Not necessarily. You're going to tell me that's no stronger than a hex nut?
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Feb 6, 2009 17:12:58 GMT
WHAT IS THAT THING!?!?!?
(it's pretty sweet, actually!)
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