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Post by YlliwCir on Jan 28, 2009 4:27:01 GMT
My friend, Sylvain, and I were discussing the difference between Windlass's Spartan Lakonian 14 inch blade(top) and their Roman Pugio 12 inch blade(bottom). Sylvain suggested that the Lakonian was a short sword and the Pugio was a long dagger. I think he hit the nail on the head and not necessarily due to size. The Lakonian "feels" like a sword in hand and use while the Pugio feels less substantial tho a decent cutter as well. I have seen this difference between sword and dagger discussed a bit, but I was wondering if their was some "official" definition. Any ideas or opinions. Not limited to these two blades.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 5:03:18 GMT
I've always considered daggers to have no longer than a 15" blade and be made intended to be used as a companion/backup to another weapon or used as a tool (hunting, eating, etc). A sword is over 15" in length and is used as a soldier's primary weapon.
I have absolutely no historical basis for this, just my own personal classification from what I have seen and handled over the years.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 5:48:34 GMT
Good question... and one I pondered before. If I have two blades - the shorter one is my knife. But usually, I just read the tag and the merchandisers will have seen to keeping me straight. I wonder if there are established standards? Inquiring minds want to know... or maybe they just want that new hunk o' springsteel. ;D
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Post by genocideseth on Jan 28, 2009 8:09:28 GMT
For me, they are divided by usage (as well?). A dagger is a side arm at most, and usually not chosen as a primary weapon. They are often used for ceremonies as well (More often than swords in most cases).
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Post by shadowhowler on Jan 28, 2009 8:38:59 GMT
I've always figured something similar to what Odingaard said...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 9:19:38 GMT
I just consider is by culture one mans sword would be anothers dagger
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2009 20:10:53 GMT
Yes, it's very subjective. Look at frodo's sting... It's an elvish dagger, but for him it's a sword Personnaly i said the windlass pugio is a dagger in oposition with the 2lb and the overall 19 1/4 In of the lakonian. In my opinion a dagger is a weapon that should be very light and quick, short, usual and easy to carry, the ancient man companion for every days and every situation. Maybee if i was more strong and tall i consider lakonian as a dagger too A feeling question...
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Post by musicalpoo on Jan 30, 2009 6:16:44 GMT
Yes, it's very subjective. Look at frodo's sting... It's an elvish dagger, but for him it's a sword Personnaly i said the windlass pugio is a dagger in oposition with the 2lb and the overall 19 1/4 In of the lakonian. In my opinion a dagger is a weapon that should be very light and quick, short, usual and easy to carry, the ancient man companion for every days and every situation. Maybee if i was more strong and tall i consider lakonian as a dagger too A feeling question... my thoughts precisely, it depends on the size of the person wielding it. I was watching a history channel show saying that some swords that are arguably daggers were absolutely swords back in the ancient days because the people were simply smaller, not by much, but enough to make a difference. My definition of a dagger is a weapon/tool carried on your belt as a back up in tight situations. When my friends and I stick-fight, we also find small sticks to put in our belt loops as daggers. And we use them usually when our swords lock, and it becomes a power struggle (which is ended by whoever draws their dagger first). So basically a dagger is a side-weapon used in sticky situations. Cheers! poo
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Post by genocideseth on Jan 30, 2009 6:30:55 GMT
Agreed with MusicalPoo...
I also see a dagger as something that can also be deployed as a tool. It is more of a companion you carry with you, like how pocket knives are today, while also a weapon. I haven't heard of a whole lot of people who would disgrace their sword to simple errands.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 30, 2009 6:34:26 GMT
I don't know if "disgrace" would be quite right... The reality of the matter is a sword is simply too cumbersome to cut your meat with, so a smaller blade is in order. Likewise when the fighting is too close to swing a sword, a dagger works better. I had thought I once read a definition of a sword as "a bladed weapon of not less than two feet in length with a blade double or more the length of the handle" but can't seem to find where I found that. Myself I draw the line at about 14 inches. If the blade is shorter than that, it's a dagger; longer, it's a short sword, longer than 24", it's a sword. Longer than 34", longsword, etc. That's just me, though. Granted I'm just over six feet tall, so that may or may not make a difference.
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Post by genocideseth on Jan 30, 2009 6:37:25 GMT
Well, by disgraceful errands I mean stuff like chopping wood, carving things etc..
I mean, with some it is understandable, but I think I knife should be used if possible. Personally, I don't even want to use my kukri as the tool it is meant to be..
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 30, 2009 6:52:26 GMT
Well, sure, chopping wood is meant for an axe, carving things is meant for a smaller knife...swords are meant for well, sword stuff. Your kukri isn't exactly a tool, per se, either. It's (apparently/allegedly) a ceremonial piece used to sacrifice large animals. I can understand not wanting to use it for that...but I wouldn't be afraid to chop wood with it, though an axe would be better...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2009 19:20:40 GMT
RicWilly: I've never found an official definition and my guess is that it is largely a matter of personal opinion. I'm not sure how to determine that other than by feel.
I'd call my Lakonian a sword even though there are Bowie knives that are larger.
My Cold Steel Naval Dirk has a 16 1/2 inch blade. Cold Steel lists it with their swords. But to me it is a long knife.
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Post by genocideseth on Jan 30, 2009 23:17:33 GMT
Well, sure, chopping wood is meant for an axe, carving things is meant for a smaller knife...swords are meant for well, sword stuff. Your kukri isn't exactly a tool, per se, either. It's (apparently/allegedly) a ceremonial piece used to sacrifice large animals. I can understand not wanting to use it for that...but I wouldn't be afraid to chop wood with it, though an axe would be better... Indeed. Most reviews I have seen on it were mainly from people looking for a devastating machete. And by meant for, I mean the fact it was bought for me to use when I go hunting (Which I cannot anymore as my I am selling my bow). i don't think I could bring myself to use it for splitting wood. Although I would gladly dismember deer limbs with it (For testing reasons).
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 31, 2009 1:31:27 GMT
Oh, geez, Charles just brought in a whole new level of grief for the debate.
Dirks.
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Post by genocideseth on Jan 31, 2009 1:35:07 GMT
From what I remember, a dirk is classified as a sword. I think they may have been a representation of an oath not to bear arms, so to prove their oath, they cut down their swords into dirks. This is not a historical fact, but it seems interesting non the less. Oh where is Rammy when you need him...
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Post by YlliwCir on Jan 31, 2009 9:06:47 GMT
Dirk Diggler, now there's a sword!
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Post by shadowhowler on Jan 31, 2009 9:35:59 GMT
Dirk Diggler, now there's a sword!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2009 21:00:56 GMT
I always kind of figured a sword was a blade with a PoB beyond the guard.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 31, 2009 22:17:38 GMT
Most blades have PoB's beyond the guard...there are also swords that balance in the grip...or so I seem to recall...
I don't have any "short swords," per se but I do have a dagger and a dirk which are about the same size. Maybe I'll slap the ol' (18" antique...maybe the 21" Raw...) wak beside them and get a picture for comparison...along with a knife or two for fun.
We'll see when I get home...
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