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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2009 19:41:21 GMT
I couldn't resist when I saw a nice fantasy/medieval sword on Ebay. I bought it purely as a wallhanger as I didn't expect much of quality. And yup, it's chinese. ;D  The weight of the sword is only 1160g despite of it's length of 115 cm, so it's no beefy blade. I've swinged it a little around carefully and it would make a lovely bottle cutter if the steel holds up. Since I have no experience with medieval sword blades I want to know how you regard the tang and construction for cutting. I consider it very thin compared to a katana, but I have seen tangs of antique medieval battle swords just as thin. I'd say roughly 10mm wide and 8mm thick.  Here you see the construction. The blade is secured with a washer and a nut at the end of the wood handle, and the pommel goes over as a cover.   I've put a little electricians tape around it to get it to fit with the handle hole without rattling. As I see it one of the real problems beside the thin tang is the way it is ground into the blade. It is at a 90 degrees angle, making this a very weak point. If you consider the construction unsafe, would it help to grind down the blade to get a V-taper into the hilt, drilling a hole in the pommel and securing the nut on the outside, and filling the whole thing with epoxy?  |
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Post by kidcasanova on Jan 15, 2009 19:51:17 GMT
I let out a whistle when I saw those pictures, Ichiban. That is NOT a safe tang and I would not be caught dead swinging it around (else I might end up dead). Hang it on the wall and leave it there, please. It looks like it would make a decently attractive decoration, anways.
Best of luck and +1 karma for asking.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jan 15, 2009 20:14:49 GMT
Looks like a rat-tail tang to me... certainly not safe for swing, let alone cutting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2009 20:21:55 GMT
Yeah.
You bought it as a wallhanger. That's all it will ever be.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2009 20:22:24 GMT
It's no rat-tail, the tang is part of the blade construction and not welded on. Not easy to see with tape covering the thing.  Well, I'll leave it on the wall. Epoxying it won't help the weak point, and it will perhaps be even more unsafe as it puts even more stress on the weak point. Thanks for the advice! |
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Post by kidcasanova on Jan 15, 2009 20:26:15 GMT
Not all rat-tail tangs are welded. It's more a reference to the actual tail of a rat: thin and round. It's an incredibly weak method of construction.
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Post by Erick R. on Jan 15, 2009 20:40:09 GMT
That is exactly a rat tail tang. AS Kidcasanova stated, Not all rat tail tangs are welded. That tang is crap (the blade may not have been heat treated or stainless anyways) and I'm glad you decided not to risk your safety or the safety of others. plus 1 for smarts.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2009 21:03:36 GMT
Even if you secured the shoulders as you showed, there's still a good chance that the pommel would be prone to shearing off.
I don't think there's anything one could say that hasn't been said. A nice wallhanger. Keep it, treasure it, and enjoy it for what it is.
Thanks for asking. I wish these things were around when I got into this.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2009 22:33:49 GMT
1075 steel is what the ad said, but with the chinese you never know what steel type you get unless it's from a well-known forge. The blade is heat treated, it actually has a nice straight hamon on both sides. But it starts about a foot up the blade and ends 5 inches from the tip, so I don't know if the whole blade is hardened. I've tried to bend it by stepping on it, and it has a nice flex, and goes back to shape.
Thanks for the advice from all of you!
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Post by Erick R. on Jan 16, 2009 0:05:14 GMT
Sounds like you might be able to turn it into a shorter sword or a few longs knives. Those are some ideas I'm playing around with for a gen 2 lucerne. Shorten, re-hilt and peen if you feel up to it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 7:21:06 GMT
Sounds like you might be able to turn it into a shorter sword or a few longs knives. Those are some ideas I'm playing around with for a gen 2 lucerne. Shorten, re-hilt and peen if you feel up to it. Yep...but you'll have to shorten it until at least HALF of the new tang is in the handle...then rethread (or peen as Erick said) the portion of the rat tail that's left:  You'd then have to rework the scabbard, grip, and the guard to fit the new profile. All in all a lot of work for a wall hanger. Not a bad looking little sword though. Cris |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 9:16:52 GMT
...I've put a little electricians tape around it... ...which is exactly the problem. The tang can't be judged with the tape wrapped around. If the tang is part of the blade, it might be safe for moderate blade action. Oskar Kolombatovich made some very fine blades with that kind of tangs. If it's welded it is not safe. Of course the general quality of the blade must be considered, too. Steel, craftsmanship etc. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 11:12:25 GMT
Yes, I've seen antique swords with riciculously thin tangs. Which is why I asked in the first place though the tang looked unsafe to me. Some of the mountings of tantos and katanas too would not be considered safe for use today, but history has shown they actually have handled battle stress. This thread from My Armoury about narrow tangs is interesting reading. www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5255 |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 13:22:09 GMT
The tang can't be judged with the tape wrapped around. If the tang is part of the blade, it might be safe for moderate blade action. Indeed. With the tape around it it seems to be roughly as thick as my Atrim tang so it could be within the realm of possibility to be safe... however, as already mentioned the quality is the important part. If you want to regrind it it may not be necessary to take so much off the blade... just another opinion, though. |
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Post by Brendan Olszowy on Jan 16, 2009 14:46:55 GMT
But it's stainless too right? Call it learning. Put it back on ebay. And 'ebay' some Hanwei's. You're far better off scrimping for a Hanwei practical <$100 and sharpening it for your first real sword.
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Jan 16, 2009 15:55:03 GMT
But it's stainless too right? Call it learning. Put it back on ebay. And 'ebay' some Hanwei's. You're far better off scrimping for a Hanwei practical <$100 and sharpening it for your first real sword. Hey, Bren. ;D Ichiban said that the add stated that the steel used was 1075, but with Chinese forges...who knows, lol. Here's his exact post: I'm wondering though...a medieval sword with a hamon?!?! Can we have some pictures of that? I have no idea what I'm talking about, but it just seems a bit strange... (and yes, I know about the GG viking sword with a hamon, but aside from that...) -Slayer |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2009 20:52:34 GMT
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SlayerofDarkness
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Post by SlayerofDarkness on Jan 17, 2009 0:29:39 GMT
Wow, it really DOES have a hamon! Not that I ever doubted your honesty, I just thought that it might be an etched fake hamon. I'm no expert, far from it, in fact, so I'll leave this one to the masters...
-Slayer
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Post by Tom K. (ianflaer) on Jan 17, 2009 3:22:55 GMT
looks real to me. dang I like the way that looks! too bad about that anorexic tang. grrrrrrr, I'm frustrated for you. that tang still looks a bit on the skinny side to me but I don't know MAYBE it could be ok for very light cutting. I think I'd just leave it on the wall.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2009 7:37:03 GMT
The hamon is real, yes, there is no reason for putting a hamon on a medieval blade. It's not clay tempered, but the blade is quenched.
The tang feels fatter and more solid than it looks on the pics, and the blade is very light for a medieval blade with 1 cm thickness at the base tapering to 2mm at the tip. The way it flexes not only in the blade, but all the way through the handle, absorbs much of the energy.
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