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Post by shadowhowler on Jan 2, 2009 4:50:19 GMT
Ok, in response to HR: Well, they're listed weight is acurate on all but one sword (the Anduril, at one lb over the listed weight) and it's kind of perpetuated into a rumor that they're sharp crowbars. However, they're non LotR swords are pretty decent as far as handling go, and the Squire is only 2.9 lbs, if I remember correctly. And in response to Jak: The kingdom of heavon swords are windlass' best work. Apart from those, and a few rare others like the Verneuil, most of their swords are laughably whippy, or have a poor hilt construction; certainly NOT a great, or even good, choice. I'd say that the best choices are, in this order, Darksword Armoury, Gen2, Valiant Armoury, Hanwei, and, finally, Windlass Steelcrafts. Of course, Albion would easily rank #1 on this list, but considering how crazily expensive they are, I'd say that it's a waste of money. Just my 2 cents, though. I hope that this is helpful! If I may ask, you offer a LOT of advice above about a lot of different swords from different makers... how many of those do you personaly own or have handled/cut with? If I recall you don't actually have any swords yet do you? Or, you had only the Paul Chen Dark Sentinel or some such? Anyone can just repeat what they read somewhere... but real helpfull advice is better given by someone who has experince on the subject of the advice given. I'm not trying to be a semprini... but I think around here we take helping each other out seriously... and if someone is looking for information, we should all do our best to only contribute real, acurate info so as to help them as best as possible. If we don't HAVE anything of that nature to offer... best to just not post... or maybe refer the one seeking the info to someone eles you know who would HAVE the info. Food for thought.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2009 22:12:37 GMT
Yeah, MAN do I wish I had the $$$ for an Albion...so I could buy a FableBlade instead! lol. But, in all seriousness, Albions really seem to be superier in handling/historical accuracy/and aesthetics, but aren't they weaker than a DSA? This is false. This is something that DSA and fans hope to propogate. Yeah DSA swords have more steel...but albion is by FAR much better HT and tempered. Which makes for a more durable sword. The albion fitting also actually you know fit...which also makes for a more durable sword. If you can afford an albion there is no reason ever to get a DSA. If you need a blunt for training, a DSA is bad anyways as it as a sharp tip and VERY stiff. For stage combat, the albion squire line is what your looking for realistic blade look. Hey jak, look at the armor class mortuary if you really want a nice one as those and can be had for $350. Leaps and bounds better then the hanwei one...and if I was more into swords of that era, I would order one right now. The hanwei one is pretty nice too...and is a better value for the buck...but you will be much happier with the armor class one if your serious about swords .
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Post by Darksword Armory on Jan 4, 2009 20:14:52 GMT
Sorry Slayer, but nearly every DSA model IS Overweight for the sword type. That's because they are over-built for stage use. It's understandable. If they built swords to historical specs, they'd bend, chip and break in stage fights. I have heard good things about their Black Knight, and a few of their other newer models. Hi Kidcasanova, I just want to rectify some of the inform you posted above, as some of the info might be misleading. If we take our most popular sword as an example, being the Medieval Knight, the sword is 2 lbs 14 oz. Most of our one handed swords are under 3 lbs. It is true however that the weight will vary from one production to the next, as our swords are individually hand forged. This does cause some variations, but also makes the uniqueness of a hand forged item as opposed to machine made one. The second point is that our swords are not specifically forged for theatrical purposes, although many theatrical groups do use our swords due to our reputation for making very durable pieces, but are rather made for reenactors and general collectors. Theatrical swords are made with very thick, almost rectangular blades and the tips are rounded off. Anyways, just wanted to clarify that Thanks, Eyal Azerad Darksword Armory www.darksword-armory.com
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Post by kidcasanova on Jan 5, 2009 2:18:07 GMT
Hey Eyal, I'm not attempting to put your work in bad light or diminish your reputation as a manufacturer. I'm only putting forth what I've seen in your pieces though the numerous reviews seen here. I typically ignore the listed weight from a manufacturer IF there are a number of examples I can look at to see an average weight. Looking at the Squire, it weighs just under 3.5lbs, nearly a pound more than what it should historically weigh. ( /index.cgi?board=swordreviews&action=display&thread=6264) The Black Knight comes in at a bit over 3 lbs. ( /index.cgi?board=swordreviews&action=display&thread=7221) The Saxon comes in at over 3.5lbs. ( www.sword-buyers-guide.com/saxon-sword.html) The Norman is 3.2 lbs. ( www.sword-buyers-guide.com/DSA-Norman.html) The Knight is the lightest one I've seen, at 2.96lbs, still half a pound heavier than it should be. ( www.sword-buyers-guide.com/knight-sword.html) Now Eyal, I respect your work and I definitely respect your communication with the customers. Nearly every post of yours I see is polite and courteous, and that's hard to come by these days. But your blades are much thicker than their historical counterparts, even using edges thicker than contemporary companies (Del Tin, Windlass). The weight and thickness of the blade lends the idea (sharp tip aside) that your blades are slanted more towards the reenactor (which you state right there in your post) than the collector. I hope you see my post as a mere opinion gathered from what I've seen, and not one that is trying to dissuade others from buying your products. Edit: Links didnt work.
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Post by shadowhowler on Jan 5, 2009 6:15:36 GMT
For the last time on this forum, I shall take a stand for DSA. I own nine of them. Unlike many others, but similar to many others, I am not involved with sword arts, re-enactment, or cutting exercises. I collect them as art. I handle them frequently. I could not care less about their weight. I do sharpen them, just because............ They are heavy and crude. They bear resemblance to a one off hand forged blade......because they are. I LOVE them. You may not. As they say in NYC, if you are selling it......there is a buyer. I am one. Eyal...I love your blades. End of story. Agreed. I love DSA... in part for the swords themselves, but also in large part because of Eyal himself. He is so easy and friendly to deal with... and as I have said before, generous to a fault. DSA makes a lot of nice looking swords that I like the style of... and I like that the steel is HARD the temper good and the swords tough. They are nice, especialy for the price... but that being said, they are not the end all of sword. I like all kinds of swords for different reasons. I wouldn't get a DSA sword to fill a niche as a fast nimble fighting sword. I would get a DSA sword to fill a niche as a nice, hand forged sword that will take a beating and keep on going. Also, I know Eyal stands behind his work and is great guy... and that goes a LONG way for me as a fan of his company. As is often the case with most things in life... I think the truth of the mater lies in-between the two opposing views. Some say DSA are crap... some say DSA are the best... To me, DSA is a great company making awesome, tough durable swords with awesome customer service, and is run by a guy who honestly listens to his costumers and talks to them, and cares what they think. The swords themselves have their good and bad points... like all swords in the under 300 doller range do. They also have their good points. They are neither 'crap' nor the 'best ever'... but instead one of many viable options in the sub 300 doller sword range. I just wish peoples reactions were not often so extreme... very few things in life are all bad or all good.
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Post by kidcasanova on Jan 5, 2009 6:40:19 GMT
For the record (since my post is what seems to have started this), not once have I ever said that DSA makes crap swords. In fact, many of my posts (including ones in this thread) have contained positive notions towards their work. However, I did point out the difference between a DSA and it's historical counterpart, because Slayer was under the impression that DSA was a fair representation of historical accuracy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2009 6:46:45 GMT
The second point is that our swords are not specifically forged for theatrical purposes, although many theatrical groups do use our swords due to our reputation for making very durable pieces, but are rather made for reenactors and general collectors. Theatrical swords are made with very thick, almost rectangular blades and the tips are rounded off. Anyways, just wanted to clarify that Thanks, Eyal Azerad Darksword Armory www.darksword-armory.com That's not quite true. The blunts with rounded tip are more for training and not for theatrical as much. They don't look very much like swords and so are not very good for theatrical purposes. Which is why sword like DSA is much loved...but the new 1mm edge is a bit thin for that purpose now. Look at the BKS stage steels...they are blunt edges but have the profile of a real sword. Then look at the hanwei practical line which is for training and not so much as a stage sword. So what eyal is describing is a training blunt...which DSA certainly is not. But DSA of old made great stage steel. The 1mm edge makes it a bit less so now however.
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Post by Darksword Armory on Jan 6, 2009 16:43:12 GMT
Hi Cold, I guess it depends on the theatrical group. ALL theatrical groups that have approached us have asked for rounded off tips. The reason is not limited to "training purposes" but safety. But again, you may be right in some respects. Some theatrical groups may want pointed tips. In 14 years of doing business however, I have never encountered a group who ordered pointed tipped swords. Even the local ARMA group asked us to round off the tips (ps, which we refuse to do). These groups generally buy our swords and round them off themselves. "practice" or "training" swords are very different. We used to make training swords quite a few years ago. These are thicker and do have rounded off edges. These were made by Stock removal. These are budget swords for training purposes. (ie, very different). There also seems to be some misconception about the thickness of our blades. Unfortunately, most people who have never purchased our swords seem to think that our blades are thick or specifically made for theatrical purposes, which is false. We will update our site very shortly and include "blade thickness" for each sword, under the specs section. Eyal Azerad Darksword Armory www.darksword-armory.com
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Post by kidcasanova on Jan 6, 2009 22:27:43 GMT
Eyal, I don't see how your pieces could weigh what they do if not for having blades thicker than their historical counterpart. I look forward to the information you post next.
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Post by ShooterMike on Jan 6, 2009 22:44:34 GMT
Eyal,
Could you please list the blade thickness at the guard, at the midpoint of the blade, and 1 inch behind the tip? That would allow for a much more accurate picture with respect to distal taper and predictable handling.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2009 0:02:46 GMT
Hi Cold, I guess it depends on the theatrical group. ALL theatrical groups that have approached us have asked for rounded off tips. The reason is not limited to "training purposes" but safety. But again, you may be right in some respects. Some theatrical groups may want pointed tips. In 14 years of doing business however, I have never encountered a group who ordered pointed tipped swords. Even the local ARMA group asked us to round off the tips (ps, which we refuse to do). These groups generally buy our swords and round them off themselves. Umm I think you are confused...ARMA isn't a theatrical group. They are getting swords to train with. So if your other "theatrical groups" are like ARMA...then I think your getting your market mixed up something fierce. Also if they are using your blades for training...they are being VERY foolish. Your blades are WAY to stiff, even with rounded tips, to be used for this purpose safely. Yeah yeah, I know a lot of ARMA guys goes yeah but we use control so we're okay as an excuse...but that is just dumb. You can't control accidents...that's why they are accidents. Then again, my issues with ARMA has nothing to do with you Eyal. And neither is the fact they are buying bad tools for the job. Although many serious theatrical groups will have both dull stage steel sword like yours and BKS AND blunts because the blunts are safer for practice. And they use the stage steel when they are on stage .
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Post by Darksword Armory on Jan 7, 2009 16:49:59 GMT
Cold,
I know you love nitpicking on everything we do, but don't put words in our mouths. I never said that ARMA was a theatrical group and never wrote
"other "theatrical groups" are like ARMA..."
ARMA is a reenactment group, obviously....So no, I am not confused. After 14 years, I think I know my clientele.
QUOTE " Also if they are using your blades for training...they are being VERY foolish. Your blades are WAY to stiff, even with rounded tips, to be used for this purpose safely."
Very presumptuous of you. You never ordered any of our swords, nor do you have any first hand experience with any of our pieces, yet you think you know who our clientele is, or should be, and how thick/thin or heavy or light our blades are. If wish to speak from ignorance, go right away...not very impressive.
You also seem to think that you know more of our products then we do. Strange from someone who has absolutely no first hand experience with our weapons.
We have supplied and are still supplying to numerous combat groups, collectors, and yes, theatrical groups, why ? because of the quality, reliability and durability of our weapons. Our clients are very happy with our swords, but of course, you know best right ?
For the readers, I do apologize for the childish bickering. This is not the type of things that should be posted on a forum, but it is inevitable with some people.
Sorry,
PS. I will "Shooter", thanks for the suggestion.
Eyal,
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Post by kidcasanova on Jan 7, 2009 18:34:20 GMT
Eyal, I did not read Cold's posts as intentionally antagonizing at all, and I think you're going way overboard here. He did not say the stiffness of your blades was a bad thing, only inappropriate for training, because proper training blunts are VERY flexible to avoid accidents.
Please stop taking criticism so personally. Everyone on this forum will agree that you are a very stand-up and agreeable man, and no on is attacking your integrity. We are posting questions and concerns we have (obviously, if we had no concerns, we'd already own several of your pieces).
All the best, Aaron
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Post by Darksword Armory on Jan 7, 2009 19:57:23 GMT
Hi Aaron,
I appreciate your response,
It's basically a reaction to numerous things Cold stated , not just this post. I really don't mind having feedback and criticism, but it's true, It irritates me when people speak with "factual" terms without having prior experience with the product, whether ours or from another maker.
Before presenting certain comments as facts, one must have some sort of experience with the product he/she is making reference to. It's simply being objective. I don't understand how Cold can determine that the blades are too stiff by looking at a picture, or determining that our swords are too heavy (Our most popular sword, being the Medieval Knight is 2 lbs 14oz) ...."shooterMike" right above, for example, has posted both positive and negative comments about DSA swords. Both are very much appreciated as they help us improve (i.e. constructive criticism). The difference between the two is that "Shooter", who actually has first hand experience with our swords, posts comments and insight leading to communication and improvements. All I am asking is for objectivity and fairness...in our regards, and in regards to other manufacturers. I would gladly have a normal exchange with Cold if he tone it down a notch or simply ask or share his opinion and presented as such. I don't think that that is too much to ask.
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Post by kidcasanova on Jan 7, 2009 20:29:43 GMT
Eyal,
Your swords are, by historical standards, overweight. I have no handled your swords, but I do not need to in this instance. While I'm sure they handle fine, I have seen listed weights and they are heavier than they should be (I even listed several earlier in this thread, with examples). This is not my opinion or me trying to bash your product. I think you produce a sturdy blade that appeals to many people in our price range, but these are my reasons for not buying them.
Your blades ARE stiff. As a sword designed to be used for cutting (what you yourself say is your intended market niche), this is a good thing and I do not understand why you are getting upset over someone pointing that out. A training blunt is designed to be flexible and whippy so that it does not damage the people sparring. Could you please explain why stiffness in the blades is a bad thing?
Anyways, back to the weight issue. A sword isn't just about weight, you can't say "all swords should weigh under three pounds" (I know you didn't say it, I'm using it as a common ideal regarding weight) because there are so many drastically different types of swords. Your most popular ones are your arming swords, which should weigh around 2.5 pounds, more depending on blade length and such. But even the Squire, with a 31 inch blade, weighs nearly 3.5 pounds (reference link in my earlier post). My VA Practical arming with very similar size, weighs 2.6 pounds. Both represent similar blade types but yours is much heavier than the other product.
The Knight, with a blade length of only 28", still weighs more than my VA Practical, with 3+ inches more blade.
Those are the reasons I have not purchased a product from you. It has nothing to do with durability, but because of the weight of the swords. If these were changed I would be absolutely interested in purchasing from you in the future. I purchased from Valiant Armory, and we all know how poor their past products were.
I know you have a market niche where you're at, with durable swords that are many times considered "beaters." But I would ask you to consider at least a couple models more accurately representing their historical precedents. You WILL get more customers for it, especially since it's something so hard to find in this price point.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2009 20:45:30 GMT
Eyal, why do you assume I never handled your blades? I sharpened one of your old 2mm blades a while back. If nothing else, that proved to me exactly how tough your blades are. As for the arma comment, there is a reason I used the word IF. You said "even our local ARMA" and that could have been either inclusive or exclusive. Since I had no idea, I said IF. All that was needed was to say you meant exclusive and that is all that would have been needed for that. And yes using a very stiff sword like your IS a horrible idea for a training weapon. But that doesn't mean a stiff blade is a bad thing if it's NOT a training sword...in fact that's generally a GOOD thing. So I think your getting the wrong idea again. This is exactly what happened at myarmoury(and for the most part I was supporting you in the black knight thread too). You get an idea in your head and you refuse to read what is actually being said. And yes I haven't seen any of your new swords since you started improving them with the thinner edges, peening and what not. I mean they do look better done at least...but you know what would make me consider getting one of your swords? Make it a sharp geometry from the start...1mm is bad for cutting and bad for stage steel. Have a distal taper to reduce weight and bring the balance towards the handle. Make the cross and handle smaller...because that will reduce weight and make the sword look more historical...and also improve harmonics. But then again, it wouldn't be a DSA sword since all that will severly reduce the toughness of your blade. But then again until Gen 2 started to do that, I wouldn't have considered them for myself either. I have said this before and will say it again...your blades don't fill my needs. That's OKAY . As for the history of our discussion...do you REALLY wanna bring that up? I mean really, if you do, I'm game. I think the end results doesn't hurt me in any of those...but a lot of those did hurt your image significantly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2009 20:55:02 GMT
Can you change his mind and tell him to go hand and a half? There are a BUNCH or swords that fit everything else but the single handed requirement. Personally, I'd recommend one of Hanwei's vikings. I picked up my friends and I LOVED it.
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Post by Darksword Armory on Jan 7, 2009 21:49:56 GMT
Quote: "As for the history of our discussion...do you REALLY wanna bring that up? I mean really, if you do, I'm game. "
I know you are. That's the problem. You seem to thrive on arguments. I'm have no intentions of arguing with you, nor will I continue this argument as this is not the platform for it.
Kidcasanova,
I have no problem with anything you have stated above. The comments are actually very much appreciated and do help us cater to collectors. It's not a matter or what is said, its about courtesy and how the message is delivered. picking an argument, again the quote stated above, is not how one opens communication. ....I'll leave it at that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2009 23:16:11 GMT
Quote: "As for the history of our discussion...do you REALLY wanna bring that up? I mean really, if you do, I'm game. " I know you are. That's the problem. You seem to thrive on arguments. I'm have no intentions of arguing with you, nor will I continue this argument as this is not the platform for it. Yes I do admit I am very argumentative. It's my nature...but I would not say I thrive on arguments. The nature of our interaction has been that basically you throw down a challenge...and I will gladly accept. If you don't want this happen every time we post in a thread, stop picking a fight with me. And it's not like I hate everything about DSA. Your CS is top notch. When we don't antagonize each other, your a very nice man to talk with. And your blades are tough little buggers. Your willing try new things to improve (glad your peening your swords for example). It's just we have some very strong disagreements in other areas.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2009 23:49:44 GMT
Can I put up my two cents ......... *takes cover under fortified bunker* Cold Napalm: Man you really love a good blog duel dont ya (although with slayerofdarkness its alright, he needs to be sorted out) .... Yeah fair enough more whip and flex blades good for training ........ totally ....... but I imagine Eyal supports alot of local Canadian cutters and fighters who have a tad bit of trouble getting other brands of swords into their homeland dont they ? so maybe DSA is their most practical option ....... and hey give the man dutifully running a small business providing to an international clientele at a frankly reasonable price some cred.(something I hope to give my "hopefully future grandson" in top notch fighting order) . kidcasa: Yeah "in that price range" ....... Well the running consistency of eyals stuff is quite good, yeah a little heavier then usual (but hey shove his blade into a a pre-ren swordsmans or dark age vikings hands and they would probably hum with delight) but hey durability yes ....... a starting geometry for dedicated cutting would be good but do canadians have trouble on the export with that thing, maybe not .......... I hear mixed messages on that. I like the DSA "interpretation" on historical originals, gives some variety ........ Its like the CAS "Tinker" Viking Sharp, I asked Michael why didnt he have the point a little stubbier like historicals, he replied cause everyone does it and thats a truth in itself, variety sells itself. Hey the peening, thinner edges and lovely choice in leathers are a good step up considering the prices havent shifted much. Eyal: Hey you could shut them all up and do a Hanwei, sharps and blunts sold seperately, different strokes, different folks ....... then again consider price (and I imagine the extra workload on you and your smiths). End of the day I love having a DSA made in canada ........ I have to love it I'm aussie and that blade travelled farther then I have in my life to get to me *TAKE COVER!!!!! INCOMING!!!!*
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