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Post by darkhorse on Aug 20, 2024 1:31:40 GMT
I do not know how to sharpen a blade with more traditional methods, so I've been using an Accusharp on blades in my small collection.
My first question is: what is a good way to deburr and generally improve an edge imparted by an Accusharp sharpener? I'm pretty sure it involves sandpaper or a sanding block. Should I use sandpaper or a foam block or what? And what grit(s) should I use? 400 like mentioned in the SBG article?
My second concern is...if I get a really nice LK Chen sword or something else that comes with a really great edge, I'd feel like a major ass using a sharpener on such a blade. I don't want to be "that guy". I don't want to mess up such an edge either with a sharpener or with inexperience. How difficult is it for a beginner to maintain such an edge, and how would I go about it? I know that actually applying a good edge geometry to a dull blade is difficult and takes a lot of practice, but what about simply maintaining a good edge that a sword may already come with? What is involved in that, and how difficult/risky towards ruining it would that be for a beginner? Would sandpaper be enough, or would it require a whetstone?
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Post by eastman on Aug 20, 2024 2:20:45 GMT
do not use an Accusharp on an LK Chen. You will ruin the edge and LK Chen sharpened all of swords I've bought from them quite well.
Some people like a slack-belt belt sander (often a 1x30") since that can give a nice appleseed edge. Practice on something cheap first.
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Post by larason2 on Aug 20, 2024 2:58:59 GMT
Don't worry about it too much. Sandpaper on a sanding block is equivalent to a stone, though they obviously all have pros and cons. The truth is a sword/stone tells you if you have the wrong angle, you can feel it and hear it. It's always better to use a finer grit than you think you need, particularly if you're starting out. Maybe get some 1500 grit sandpaper (automotive supply) to get a feel, and you can go coarser later if you need to. An LK Chen is probably the wrong sword to learn sharpening on, too expensive! Get something that's $200 or less carbon steel if you can, and practice sharpening it. Once you get good at it, then you can move on to something more expensive! I usually sharpen edge leading, there's pros and cons to this, but it tends to make it easier to avoid a burr. You still have to apex it, but burrs are usually less troublesome and less likely to happen. There's lots to say, but it's better to start by getting your hands dirty.
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Post by theforestninja on Aug 20, 2024 5:51:59 GMT
Sharpening on Whestones is a good skill to acquire. Once You learn how to do it You'll never have to suffer having dull blades around the house. I currently own many Japanese Whetstones and initially had trouble getting a nice edge. Like anything else practice is all that is required and after watching a bunch of Youtube videos I learned how to get an edge that I can cut paper or veggies like there's no issue. Equal passes on both sides of the blade at the same angle are the key.
Get a $20-$50 carbon steel knife and practice with that.
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Post by darkhorse on Aug 20, 2024 6:28:36 GMT
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 20, 2024 8:40:04 GMT
The LK Chen edge is sharp, but it's not super sharp and quite toothy. You can get a lot more out of those swords with a good sharpening IMHO. Although you likely will ruin the surface finish, this is also true if you use it.
Removing a burr isn't anything special. You go at the edge with a stone/sand paper block pushing from edge to spine a few time, ths will diminish the burr a lot, but you need to keep a good angle. Then stropping a few times removes the rest. Don't go towards the edge with a belt sander to remove a burr, in my experience you will just dull the edge a bit, might be different on Worksharp style, I don't know, you should experiment with which side you do last.
The Worksharps/Accusharps work, but even with the angle guides there is of space for error - like pressure on the blade and how you hold it, it's by no means a 100% success chance.
The steel also matters a lot, the harder the edge the less likely it is to form a burr. A high toughness, low hardness steel on the other hand can produce burrs that just flip-flop side to side forever.
I primarily use diamond plates, they barely get used up, you never need to straighten them and they work well on modern knife steels too. They don't polish like stones though, so you will not get a mirror from the diamond alone, but a strop does the rest for me.
With sandpaper you can get a lot of different abrasives, I would stay away from very modern stuff like Cubitron, it abrades a lot of material fast, too fast for my liking. Cheap paper works well enough but it might lose its bite relatively quickly.
In the end sharpness is a relative concept and sharpening is personal preferrence. Some are fine with what comes of the belt, some need more. Some prefer using stones, others belts. You need to experimet. What works for one might not for you and there are other variables besides angle you can mess up.
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Post by darkhorse on Aug 20, 2024 14:29:40 GMT
The LK Chen edge is sharp, but it's not super sharp and quite toothy. You can get a lot more out of those swords with a good sharpening IMHO. Although you likely will ruin the surface finish, this is also true if you use it. Removing a burr isn't anything special. You go at the edge with a stone/sand paper block pushing from edge to spine a few time, ths will diminish the burr a lot, but you need to keep a good angle. Then stropping a few times removes the rest. Don't go towards the edge with a belt sander to remove a burr, in my experience you will just dull the edge a bit, might be different on Worksharp style, I don't know, you should experiment with which side you do last. The Worksharps/Accusharps work, but even with the angle guides there is of space for error - like pressure on the blade and how you hold it, it's by no means a 100% success chance. The steel also matters a lot, the harder the edge the less likely it is to form a burr. A high toughness, low hardness steel on the other hand can produce burrs that just flip-flop side to side forever. I primarily use diamond plates, they barely get used up, you never need to straighten them and they work well on modern knife steels too. They don't polish like stones though, so you will not get a mirror from the diamond alone, but a strop does the rest for me. With sandpaper you can get a lot of different abrasives, I would stay away from very modern stuff like Cubitron, it abrades a lot of material fast, too fast for my liking. Cheap paper works well enough but it might lose its bite relatively quickly. In the end sharpness is a relative concept and sharpening is personal preferrence. Some are fine with what comes of the belt, some need more. Some prefer using stones, others belts. You need to experimet. What works for one might not for you and there are other variables besides angle you can mess up. Thanks for the information. That goes for the others who have replied as well. Until I watched a video about the Work Sharp yesterday, I didn't have the proper definition of what a burr is. I was thinking about something else that happens when I sharpen blades with an Accusharp; along the edges are (it's hard to find the right words to explain) grainy, wavy sort of vertical lines, like a rough texture. I think that uneven pressure might cause or at least exacerbate that. I'm pretty sure that can easily be remedied with some sandpaper. I do notice what seems like an actual burr on a blade I recently sharpened. From what I've gathered, the Work Sharp seems to give a better and cleaner edge than the Accusharp, comparing what's possible using only each tool singularly to get the result. What I've heard about how to use it is to do one side until there's a noticeable burr, and then do the other side the same number of times, and then switch to a finer belt and alternate one for one. I think it can even apple seed the edge. I'll look into that more. Yeah, I will probably just have to find what works for me by actually trying things. |
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mrstabby
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 20, 2024 15:19:53 GMT
The LK Chen edge is sharp, but it's not super sharp and quite toothy. You can get a lot more out of those swords with a good sharpening IMHO. Although you likely will ruin the surface finish, this is also true if you use it. Removing a burr isn't anything special. You go at the edge with a stone/sand paper block pushing from edge to spine a few time, ths will diminish the burr a lot, but you need to keep a good angle. Then stropping a few times removes the rest. Don't go towards the edge with a belt sander to remove a burr, in my experience you will just dull the edge a bit, might be different on Worksharp style, I don't know, you should experiment with which side you do last. The Worksharps/Accusharps work, but even with the angle guides there is of space for error - like pressure on the blade and how you hold it, it's by no means a 100% success chance. The steel also matters a lot, the harder the edge the less likely it is to form a burr. A high toughness, low hardness steel on the other hand can produce burrs that just flip-flop side to side forever. I primarily use diamond plates, they barely get used up, you never need to straighten them and they work well on modern knife steels too. They don't polish like stones though, so you will not get a mirror from the diamond alone, but a strop does the rest for me. With sandpaper you can get a lot of different abrasives, I would stay away from very modern stuff like Cubitron, it abrades a lot of material fast, too fast for my liking. Cheap paper works well enough but it might lose its bite relatively quickly. In the end sharpness is a relative concept and sharpening is personal preferrence. Some are fine with what comes of the belt, some need more. Some prefer using stones, others belts. You need to experimet. What works for one might not for you and there are other variables besides angle you can mess up. Thanks for the information. That goes for the others who have replied as well. Until I watched a video about the Work Sharp yesterday, I didn't have the proper definition of what a burr is. I was thinking about something else that happens when I sharpen blades with an Accusharp; along the edges are (it's hard to find the right words to explain) grainy, wavy sort of vertical lines, like a rough texture. I think that uneven pressure might cause or at least exacerbate that. I'm pretty sure that can easily be remedied with some sandpaper. I do notice what seems like an actual burr on a blade I recently sharpened. From what I've gathered, the Work Sharp seems to give a better and cleaner edge than the Accusharp, comparing what's possible using only each tool singularly to get the result. If I remember right, what I've heard about how to use it is to do one side until there's a noticeable burr, and then do the other side the same number of times, and then alternate one for one. I think it can even apple seed the edge. I'll look into that more. Yeah, I will probably just have to find what works for me by actually trying things. Could be uneven pressure or pullthrough speed. It could also be that you changed the angle slightly for some reason, like gripping the blade a different way.
I think the Worksharp and Accusharp are pretty similar, but the Worksharp Ken Oinion has a wider belt, making it easier to get a consistent outcome. You can do it one side until you feel a burr, but be sure it's the side where the belt is going away from the edge (or does it have forward and backward gears?). If you do one side until a burr forms you remove more material than if you go alternating passes until a burr forms. The single side approach is less back and forth switching at the cost of slightly more edge wear - absolutely your decision what you do. Also not all steels form burrs equally, so it might not work for every sword to feel for a burr. I personally use a flashlight, pointing at the edge and looking for glinting spots so I know how far I have to go (although burrs also show as glinting, it's different) and go alternating passes until the glinting is gone and cutting glossy paper you can feel where more work is needed pretty well. Convex edges, appleseed, happens without trying on a belt sander, but depending on belt tension and pressure on the blade you can make it more or less pronounced. If you use sandpaper on convex edges, there are sandpaper holders with a rubber spacer so the sandpaper follows the contour - much harder to get a nice convex with hard paper holders or stones, not impossible but you need too polish with something soft as a last step, like the rubber backened sand paper or leather strops also do well.
A folded over burr can make a good, sharp edge basically useless without dulling it, so try to diminish it as well as possible. Slow cutting through paper is an OK edge (the slower you cut the harder it is and the more feedback you get on sharpness and defects), cutting thin glossy magazine/catalogue paper or phone book paper with a tiny bit of stuttering means it's pretty close to shaving and will cut any type of target well - that's where I stop since a shaving edge does not keep that well unless the sword is pretty hard. The LK Chens do hold a shaving edge reasonably well against bottles. Pool noodles should not be more abrasive, Tatami definately is and would profit from a more stable edge.
You can get any egde angle shaving sharp but only if the steel allows it. Sharpening is a big rabbit hole, with angles and microbevels, polished vs left toothy etc. My advice keep the original edge angle unless it's higher than 25° a side, make it slightly convex, if you want too make the edge more resilient put a microbevel on it (1-2 passes with a strop at a higher angle). Don't go below 20° on soft steel (below 53HRC).
Good luck!
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Post by darkhorse on Aug 20, 2024 18:33:28 GMT
Thanks for the information. That goes for the others who have replied as well. Until I watched a video about the Work Sharp yesterday, I didn't have the proper definition of what a burr is. I was thinking about something else that happens when I sharpen blades with an Accusharp; along the edges are (it's hard to find the right words to explain) grainy, wavy sort of vertical lines, like a rough texture. I think that uneven pressure might cause or at least exacerbate that. I'm pretty sure that can easily be remedied with some sandpaper. I do notice what seems like an actual burr on a blade I recently sharpened. From what I've gathered, the Work Sharp seems to give a better and cleaner edge than the Accusharp, comparing what's possible using only each tool singularly to get the result. If I remember right, what I've heard about how to use it is to do one side until there's a noticeable burr, and then do the other side the same number of times, and then alternate one for one. I think it can even apple seed the edge. I'll look into that more. Yeah, I will probably just have to find what works for me by actually trying things. Could be uneven pressure or pullthrough speed. It could also be that you changed the angle slightly for some reason, like gripping the blade a different way.
I think the Worksharp and Accusharp are pretty similar, but the Worksharp Ken Oinion has a wider belt, making it easier to get a consistent outcome. You can do it one side until you feel a burr, but be sure it's the side where the belt is going away from the edge (or does it have forward and backward gears?). If you do one side until a burr forms you remove more material than if you go alternating passes until a burr forms. The single side approach is less back and forth switching at the cost of slightly more edge wear - absolutely your decision what you do. Also not all steels form burrs equally, so it might not work for every sword to feel for a burr. I personally use a flashlight, pointing at the edge and looking for glinting spots so I know how far I have to go (although burrs also show as glinting, it's different) and go alternating passes until the glinting is gone and cutting glossy paper you can feel where more work is needed pretty well. Convex edges, appleseed, happens without trying on a belt sander, but depending on belt tension and pressure on the blade you can make it more or less pronounced. If you use sandpaper on convex edges, there are sandpaper holders with a rubber spacer so the sandpaper follows the contour - much harder to get a nice convex with hard paper holders or stones, not impossible but you need too polish with something soft as a last step, like the rubber backened sand paper or leather strops also do well.
A folded over burr can make a good, sharp edge basically useless without dulling it, so try to diminish it as well as possible. Slow cutting through paper is an OK edge (the slower you cut the harder it is and the more feedback you get on sharpness and defects), cutting thin glossy magazine/catalogue paper or phone book paper with a tiny bit of stuttering means it's pretty close to shaving and will cut any type of target well - that's where I stop since a shaving edge does not keep that well unless the sword is pretty hard. The LK Chens do hold a shaving edge reasonably well against bottles. Pool noodles should not be more abrasive, Tatami definately is and would profit from a more stable edge.
You can get any egde angle shaving sharp but only if the steel allows it. Sharpening is a big rabbit hole, with angles and microbevels, polished vs left toothy etc. My advice keep the original edge angle unless it's higher than 25° a side, make it slightly convex, if you want too make the edge more resilient put a microbevel on it (1-2 passes with a strop at a higher angle). Don't go below 20° on soft steel (below 53HRC).
Good luck!
I believe the Work Sharp goes in one direction. I'm not sure, though. It has two edge guides, one of either side of the belt. They are adjustable up to thirty degrees by increments of five. The Accusharp doesn't have a belt. It's a pretty basic hand-held sharpener with carbide blades. The only difference between it and I guess most others like it is that it produces a less abrupt secondary bevel. What you said about alternating makes sense. Ideally, if I can remove less material and achieve the same result, I'd prefer that. Also, I'd probably ideally want the same level of sharpness you prefer rather than "shaving sharp". I think "toothy" might be the term for what I see on the edges I've done, and it just gets more extreme from inconsistent pressure and/or angle. Yes, there is a "rabbit hole" with sharpening. With stuff like that, I tend to have an economic/pragmatic philosophy. I want better than the bare minimum level of performance, but I'm not a perfectionist. I tend to not want to go very far into diminishing returns with such things. |
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 20, 2024 18:59:09 GMT
Ah, sorry, I thought accusharp was a belted one. Yeah, those carbide sharpeners aren't good. You just don't get good looking or very sharp edges. Use anything but those! Stropping doen't do much to help here either.
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Post by larason2 on Aug 20, 2024 19:23:04 GMT
All the different gadgets can work, but there's a skill to using them all. If your goal is to use stones, don't waste time trying to learn how to use a fancy machine. Many of the skills aren't transferrable. If the goal is to use a machine, then spend your time on that.
When I was younger I used a "wet wheel" machine, basically a round sharpening stone that spun. You can still get machines like that. The skills aren't transferrable to stones though, and now it sits unused. I didn't learn about how to flatten the wheel until long after I started using it, which is essential to good results on it.
I recently got an unpolished bare blade from China, and I was pretty impressed with how even and smooth they got the convex grind. I'm sure they have a fancy grinder/sander, but they also really know how to use it! My grinding is pretty crappy by comparison, so I always spend more time with a file or sandpaper.
Also, all methods have pros and cons. Familiarize yourself with the pros and cons of different methods, and pick one to use. No wrong answer here, they're your swords after all. It's not uncommon to struggle with one of the methods at first, but once you get it, it's usually fine.
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Post by mrstabby on Aug 20, 2024 19:48:31 GMT
I disagree, these carbide sharpeners basically don't work. Using a brick is more effective, and everyone (I know of) who used such a device and tried any other sharpening method never went back.  The chinese likely use a belt to sharpen and then a buffing wheel to polish. You can get pretty shiny surfaces, but the buffing wheel dulls the edge a tiny bit. It will round over the apex slightly. Now you mention "wet wheels", like Tormak? Those do work well, but you will always end up with a slight hollow grind, not so good for swords IMHO. They are also a bit cumbersome for big blades with the second stropping wheel always in the way. If you are talking single wheel, I have tried a few in the last years and they all were terrible, you need to buy 500$ stuff to get something that's running true. I did have one as a child that ran well, but now the QC seems just bad. Unless you can balance and grind stone wheels to a perfectly round shape it's better to get a belt. Thinking about that, I would strongly advise against bench grinders unless you really need a fast and dirty edge. Although they can be used they are quite fickle and can very easily burn blades or grind unsightly gouges, also only the right kind of disk will give you nice edges. Although as a final fast stropping technique a round wood disk loaded with compound added to a grinder works extremely well and fast - compared to a manual strop. Theorethically you could make stropping belts for any belt sander too. This is the advantage of the Worksharp compared to "normal" belt sanders, belts up to like 6000 grit and stropping belts are being sold by the manufacturer, no DIY needed. |
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Post by larason2 on Aug 20, 2024 23:41:03 GMT
This is like the one I have: www.ebay.ca/itm/235310909389?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=706-89093-2056-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=235310909389&targetid=1659317146497&device=m&mktype=pla&googleloc=9001228&poi=&campaignid=17288923165&mkgroupid=135230546845&rlsatarget=pla-1659317146497&abcId=9300873&merchantid=10252592&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD00iICKWp5Kuf9wbD3vzmdr9r-nC&gclid=CjwKCAjw_ZC2BhAQEiwAXSgClv-2ymc3tX_iUIcc1chjnUcQRAw4Ki_dZ3lfo7tqjopaZDJJFJ-PbxoC3UAQAvD_BwEThe wheel is like a standard 700 ish grit grinding stone. You're right the edge is always concave. Looks like it's roughly equivalent to a tormek today. This was a good machine in its day, but you can never trust modern machines! I would trust the output from this particular machine provided the wheel has enough surface left that you can flatten it, but the plastic they made it with is pretty brittle and subject to breakage. The thing I like about stones is they tend to give a convex edge, and they tend to wear concave, which can give a more convex edge. There are lots of ways you can position the blade relative to the stone, and a lot of options for stones, even allowing polishing, etc. There's more depth to the skill, and your sharpening gets better over time. It's a deep rabbit hole though, particularly if you get into natural stones. You can get finer results than any other method though. What I mean is Tormek, worksharp, belt sander, etc. I've also seen those who struggle to sharpen a sword on those. Motorizing can make your work faster, but it doesn't make it necessarily better. If the purpose is just to sharpen, then you have to learn to use the tool. So the pros with these are they are faster, like any other tool there's a learning curve. These types are reputable, there seem to be a lot of "sharpening systems" about, but I would be careful unless they are reputable on the sharpening groups, say on Facebook (I'm part of one there). I've never used a carbide sharpener, but if it's one of those things you pull the blade through a slot, then I agree they're useless. Even if you have a good one you tend to get a concave edge that isn't very good, and it's hard to optimize them. These are rare though, there seem to be a lot of cheap ones about that are probably paper weights. |
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Aug 21, 2024 3:20:39 GMT
Wow, talk about a blast from the past! That's the exact one I had in the late 1980s. Worked pretty good, though I only used it on an MRL Qama and a 440C "ninjato." (Well, and used it on a whole bunch of machetes and hunting knives.) |
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