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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 7:48:19 GMT
What were Bastard swords used for? They were obviously the middle between the longsword and the arming sword, but what purpouse did they have on the battlefield? What fighting styles were used for them, were they used with shilds, and how were they used against long swords? Were they used with armour or was the guy in cloth, ect?
I really want to buy one but want to make a smart investment since this would take a lot of resources for me to do and I want to make sure I undertand what exactly I'm getting.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 8:39:34 GMT
Hi, You may be better off using a resource like: www.myarmoury.com/feature_oakeshott.html (in the bottom third of the page) to look at a sword's characteristics... thearma.org/terms4.htm has a bit of info but as you can tell from reading it they may not have had a role different to 'longswords'. I have read opinions that are all over the place (yay for the internet) and so there is the possibility that it is not accurately known exactly what each form of sword was for... it might have just been individual preference.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2008 9:32:47 GMT
Most of our modern terms for swords were invented in the 19th century or are even younger. In 'old days' there were no words like "Bastard Sword". A usual word for a "long sword' was exactly that - Long Sword.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2008 1:50:06 GMT
Like Giraut said, many of the terms we use to describe sword types are modern inventions. My understanding is that the terms "long sword," "bastard sword" and "hand and a half sword" are basically synonymous.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2008 2:45:27 GMT
Thanks guys I will definitely have a look.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2008 22:56:37 GMT
The weapon I grew up hearing and reading about that was called a "longsword" was nowhere near the size of a Great sword. It was about the length of a bastard/hand-and-a-half sword but slimmer and lighter. It also tapered to a fine point so as to piece an individual ring on a coat of chain mail and allow the edges to split that ring and open a hole in the armour so that a thrust could go home. Designed specifically to combat chainmail.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 2:17:02 GMT
Like Giraut said, many of the terms we use to describe sword types are modern inventions. My understanding is that the terms "long sword," "bastard sword" and "hand and a half sword" are basically synonymous. That is also my understanding. Of course, back in my D&D days, I'd have argued with you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2008 3:05:40 GMT
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Post by ShooterMike on Nov 2, 2008 16:55:54 GMT
While the Spanish and French used the term "espée bastarde" to describe swords in the 1500s, it was my understanding that the English only started referring to certain swords as "bastard swords" in the late 1700s or early 1800s. That could be totally wrong, I've just never heard any different. In any case, the 1800s references I've seen had the English writer saying something to the effect that they were "a bastard mixture of arming sword and longsword, the grip being somewhat longer than an arming sword and allowing the use of two hands, while still not being as long as most longsword hilts, and the blade being not much longer that a typical arming sword, and the sword able to be used easily in either one or both hands" That's what I think of when someone uses the term "bastard sword", but I may be totally confused and off-base.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2008 3:39:45 GMT
While the Spanish and French used the term "espée bastarde" to describe swords in the 1500s, it was my understanding that the English only started referring to certain swords as "bastard swords" in the late 1700s or early 1800s. That could be totally wrong, I've just never heard any different. In any case, the 1800s references I've seen had the English writer saying something to the effect that they were "a bastard mixture of arming sword and longsword, the grip being somewhat longer than an arming sword and allowing the use of two hands, while still not being as long as most longsword hilts, and the blade being not much longer that a typical arming sword, and the sword able to be used easily in either one or both hands" That's what I think of when someone uses the term "bastard sword", but I may be totally confused and off-base. To me, that's what a bastard sword is. However, some people have claimed that they are a sword that is intermediate between a longsword and a "true" greatsword... which really seems like splitting hairs to me. I definitely like "our" definition better.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2008 10:12:53 GMT
@vyapada: Of course words as words weren't invented in 19th century. What happened was that the nomenclature of swords was invented with the developement of 'military science' in 19th century. Additionally, in 20th century a lot of new and pseudo-old expressions came into use, in fantasy novels et al.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2008 12:22:05 GMT
Is this discussion limited to English terms? If so fair enough, I couldn't find historical sources for the term bastard sword - I just assumed it was borrowed from the French.
Given that the phrase espées bastardes appears in that text beside other terms describing swords/weapons it seems like it was an established term describing a specific object (and not just a collection of words) - but I don't understand the language or the context.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2008 13:00:16 GMT
'epee batarde' (which seems to be the modern way of writing espees bastardes) means s.th. like a 'mixed sword' but - it is no terminus technicus, it's just two words. Of course people talked to each other in renaissance or medieval times, language wasn't invented today :-) But - those two words 'mixed sword' did not have any relevance as a general technical term. All technical terms relating to swords and parts of sword were introduced on a general basis just some 150 to 200 years ago.
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