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Post by rashimoto on Dec 29, 2022 18:12:15 GMT
Not sure if anyone can help me out since this is a bit of a niche product. Long story short, a couple of years ago I commissioned a metalsmith to make me an empty lightsaber hilt in the form of a katana styled after that of the lead character's in one of my favorite video games, Jin Sakai in Ghost of Tsushima. Not sure if imugr links work here. I'll try both embed or direct link to see what works. (EDIT: nevermind figured out I need to be in desktop mode) Josh Marlan of Cottontail Customs has wrapped quite a good number of these types of sabers from this particular vendor but I waited too long to finish installing the electronics before sending it out to him and now his business has blown up and he's been booked over a year. I've no idea if or when he'll open up but am anxious to finish my project. I'm in the process of learning how to wrap tsukamaki and I read about the glue, kusune. I've purchased menuki, white silk ito and rice paper to make hashigami as well as rayskin from Namikawa (although this might be a bit of overkill since I realize the hilt has recesses for panels which usually it seems people just use cheaper skins for?) This is a labor of love/pet project so money isn't really an object although I want to stay within reason for what's essentially not really a katana lol. My particular questions are about the placement of emperor nodes on rayskin panels and the kusune. For the nodes when it comes to panels, is there a particular side they go on or do they go on both sides? (Imagining I'd need two skins to do the latter) I read they should go on the omote side, the part facing outward from me (I should add I am left-handed so probably reverse for most of you) but is there an instance where people use panels that have nodes on both sides? I read the positioning may also be dependent on the time period so I'd need to do more research as the game is not quite period accurate with the gear (the actual battle of Tsushima took place in the 13th century but Jin I believe is wearing gear from the much later and more well-known Edo period) Also for the kusune, it seems Namikama is out of the blackened resin which they note is stickier. I live in the city in an apartment so making my own sounds like it'd stink up the place. I think I found a decent equivalent in a store that sells knapping equipment. Can anyone tell me if this suffices as a decent substitute? goknapping.com/products/natural-pine-pitch-resin-glueAs is typical of my OCD trait, I will be doing a lot of studying on this before doing it on the actual prop and have already bought some extra synthetic ito wrapping and a bare wooden tsuka handle to practice on. I am reading everything on Josh's site tutorial-wise as well as research through other sword forums and YT videos. If anyone has other notes or links that'd be helpful I'd greatly appreciate it. I will probably practice for a couple of months before I take on the real thing. I know it won't look like a 30 year expert's work but I want this at least to not look like a complete novice did it. If it's one thing that bothers me on katanas, it's an uneven wrap where the diamonds are all crooked. If I can just get them straight enough and lined up nicely, that's more than enough for me! Thanks in advance.
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Post by larason2 on Dec 29, 2022 21:43:37 GMT
Welcome to the forum! I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'm sure more explanations will also follow.
Here's a useful link on the subject:
http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/samewrapping.html For the "emperor's nodes" - If you look at a piece of rayskin leather, you will see that there is a number of big "nodes" along the spine. These are considered aesthetically pleasing, so usually you want to show them off. Now, usually a katana has the side that faces you (ura), and the side facing away from you (omote). I'm not sure if there were ever any left handed samurai, but they may have very well worn the sword on the left side anyway! You can easily draw a sword with either hand from the left side the way they are traditionally worn (I do all the time, though I am not left handed, I train both hands and both orientations/foot placements). Anyway, the omote side is the one you present to the world when the sword is sheathed, so you want it to be the nicest. On that side, the emperor's node is mounted away from you with the sword sheathed, toward the end of the tsuka where someone looking at it will be the closest to see it (the kashira, or endcap), strategically placed so they will be visible through and centered in the diamonds formed by the ito. Unless you got the leather of a very small ray, or your tsuka is very long, you should be able to do a whole tsuka with one ray skin.
As for how to wrap the ray skin around, the article above wraps the whole skin around the wood, but another way to do it is to cut it into two rectangles and inlay them into the wood. Either way is probably ok, depending on what period you're going for. Same with Menuki, there were different practices over time with where to place them. In your case, if you have a nice emperor's node, I would place the menuki on the other end of the omote side where your hand would be, and the menuki on the ura side on the opposite end of the tsuka as the menuki on the omote. But, there are probably other opinions. On my Ronin Katana Dojo pros, I don't have a real ray skin samegane on it, so I put the omote menuki on the end where the emperor's node would be, and the ura menuki towards me.
I'm pretty sure in Japan they use a rice-based glue that they hand make for most of the sword. However, this is time consuming to make, and you need the right skill to make it, and to know when the consistency is just right. You can use a modern synthetic glue, but that doesn't really jive with traditional Japanese opinions about how to do it, and you're going to have trouble redoing the tsuka in the future. So, using the natural pine resin you're suggesting would probably be ok. Hide glue or fish glue are also reversible and natural, though the method of application and the particular traits of the glue varies for each one. No matter what you use, use it sparingly, as you'll make the leather uncomfortable if you over-glue it.
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Post by rashimoto on Dec 30, 2022 0:10:13 GMT
Welcome to the forum! I'm not an expert on the subject, but I'm sure more explanations will also follow. Here's a useful link on the subject: http://www.ksky.ne.jp./~sumie99/samewrapping.html For the "emperor's nodes" - If you look at a piece of rayskin leather, you will see that there is a number of big "nodes" along the spine. These are considered aesthetically pleasing, so usually you want to show them off. Now, usually a katana has the side that faces you (ura), and the side facing away from you (omote). I'm not sure if there were ever any left handed samurai, but they may have very well worn the sword on the left side anyway! You can easily draw a sword with either hand from the left side the way they are traditionally worn (I do all the time, though I am not left handed, I train both hands and both orientations/foot placements). Anyway, the omote side is the one you present to the world when the sword is sheathed, so you want it to be the nicest. On that side, the emperor's node is mounted away from you with the sword sheathed, toward the end of the tsuka where someone looking at it will be the closest to see it (the kashira, or endcap), strategically placed so they will be visible through and centered in the diamonds formed by the ito. Unless you got the leather of a very small ray, or your tsuka is very long, you should be able to do a whole tsuka with one ray skin. As for how to wrap the ray skin around, the article above wraps the whole skin around the wood, but another way to do it is to cut it into two rectangles and inlay them into the wood. Either way is probably ok, depending on what period you're going for. Same with Menuki, there were different practices over time with where to place them. In your case, if you have a nice emperor's node, I would place the menuki on the other end of the omote side where your hand would be, and the menuki on the ura side on the opposite end of the tsuka as the menuki on the omote. But, there are probably other opinions. On my Ronin Katana Dojo pros, I don't have a real ray skin samegane on it, so I put the omote menuki on the end where the emperor's node would be, and the ura menuki towards me. I'm pretty sure in Japan they use a rice-based glue that they hand make for most of the sword. However, this is time consuming to make, and you need the right skill to make it, and to know when the consistency is just right. You can use a modern synthetic glue, but that doesn't really jive with traditional Japanese opinions about how to do it, and you're going to have trouble redoing the tsuka in the future. So, using the natural pine resin you're suggesting would probably be ok. Hide glue or fish glue are also reversible and natural, though the method of application and the particular traits of the glue varies for each one. No matter what you use, use it sparingly, as you'll make the leather uncomfortable if you over-glue it. Thank you very much for this! I did see that link before in my search but I guess I was overthinking it believing the proper way was that the nodes had to be on both sides. I couldn't find a definitive answer. It would have to be panels instead of wrapped as there's recessed gaps for panels in my hilt. I don't think I could wrap over them entirely without causing unevenness unless I filled it with something. The hilt is actually made of metal, not wood (though it's painted well to look as such) so getting the ito to grip might be even more tricky than usual, which is why I wanted to use the best glue I could muster. Your thoughts on the positioning also makes sense. There were likely no left-handed samurai. I'm pretty sure I've read in many historical texts on older cultures, including Japan, that people generally trained their children to write right-handed as it was viewed as a bad omen or a hindrance to be a lefty. It might even still go on today. I recall visiting Beijing and eating left-handed with chopsticks and people in the restaurant looked at me strangely till a friend told me it was unusual to be left-handed in China. I was thinking more for my own comfort sake but I suppose you're right in that it wouldn't matter. I'm pretty ambidextrous as well so could wield it right if need be. Thank you again!
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Post by Cottontail Customs on Dec 30, 2022 20:21:56 GMT
Hi, sorry I couldn't wrap this for you, I'm just overloaded and dealing with health issues, etc., etc. first off, the placement of the emperor's node is typically right above the end knot on the omote (public) side. in the case of this style of hilt, where there is no pass through for the ito in the "kashira", you will have to come up with a different way to finish off the wrap. you can't really cross the ito over the kashira either because you may need to remove it for future maintenance and it will also partially block the sound. I've used different versions of what's referred to as a gunto knot on sabers like this and it works well but it does kind of throw off the placements a bit since it's slightly different than a standard knot and it's typically reversed since what's usually the public facing side then becomes the opposite... I know, confusing. your best bet is to place it as close to the bottom on the side you choose to be the omote. I would personally go by the tsuba design to determine this. the proper way to view a katana is to have the blade facing right, with the edge up. looking at it this way either displayed on a stand or worn in an obi on the left hip is the correct way. in your case, face the emitter end to the right and since your "blade" doesn't have an edge, you want to turn it so the waves on the tsuba are in the correct position (right side up). so emitter to the right, waves on tsuba in correct position. the side you are viewing when this is done will be the omote side. this is where your tsukamaki starts, with the single flat strip of ito at the top. the hilt below shows the omote side and how the maki should begin and end on this side. I would place the emperor's node in the first or second opening near the pommel end on this side. you can see below where it would be in a more traditional situation. I think I've included an emperor's node on maybe only two saber wraps. this could be tricky. on a typical wooden handle, you can easily adjust for the thickness of the skin in the area of the emperor's node by carving more wood. obviously, this isn't an option for a saber hilt so instead of adjusting the hilt, you'll likely have to file down the underside of the samegawa or it can be too thick to seat well. other areas of the skin will be a lot thinner and will take less prep to fit right. there are also other complications such as having very narrow channels as opposed to actual katana tsuka. this becomes a bit limiting and can cause issues when the skin is thick or the emperor's node is very big. it took a lot of prep and adjusting to get this hilt to work with a large node (see below). I had to reinforce the corners of the ito near the node so it wouldn't keep spreading. to be honest, I'd actually recommend not using the emperor's node if it's very large but maybe include some of the secondary nodes instead. depending on the overall quality of the skin you bought, you may be able to use the side areas instead of the central line of nodes and still wind up with higher than average quality but slightly thinner samegawa. if going with the emperor's node, placement can be tricky if you're not used to doing tsukamaki. obviously, you want the node to appear unobstructed when finished so the placement has to be precise and coordinated with the way you wrap the rest of the hilt. if you don't place it correctly or can't keep your wrap on track while going, it can easily wind up falling under the ito instead of in an opening. again, another reason you might want to go with a more standard piece without the emperor's node. lastly, using kusune is good for saber hilts as it's tacky enough to hold the ito in place but not so permanent like modern glue so you won't damage the hilt, in case you want to redo it later on. just a little rubbing alcohol removes kusune from metal fairly easily. the pitch glue you linked could work if it's not too brittle, which they state it is not. typically, camping pitch can be harder than kusune and I've had it shatter before. they sometimes add charcoal, which makes it harder and more brittle. kusune should be tacky but not too tacky and pliable but not too soft. it wasn't meant to be as permanent as glue or to hold things together in the same way. I've felt 100 year old kusune and it was still tacky! if you can lightly coat the underside of the ito with it, it should be fine. if it's too hard and skates over the silk like glass, it won't do you much good. you may have to pre-warm it before using. just hold it in your hands for about 5-10 minutes until it softens slightly and becomes tacky to the touch. always test things out on scrap first. oh, and you might want to be extra careful using kusune on white ito. white ito is hard enough to keep clean as is but if you get the pitch on your fingers and then on the ito, it will get all kinds of messy. good luck with your project. practice a lot before you commit and feel free to ask any more questions you may have. you might want to join the katana craft group on facebook for more help. ps - I had to make a special "sashigane" to hold the hilt while wrapping. traditionally, a piece of metal shaped similar to a sword's nakago would be used but I had to make one out of wood in this case. basically, a 1" diameter wood dowl, that I placed a furniture pad on the end of so it wouldn't scratch the led lens. you insert it like a blade and then tighten the blade screw so it's secure. now you can mount the other end to a table/desk like you would a regular sashigane. I also flattened out both sides of the dowl so it wouldn't roll while I'm working.
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Post by rashimoto on Dec 31, 2022 0:56:21 GMT
Hi, sorry I couldn't wrap this for you, I'm just overloaded and dealing with health issues, etc., etc. first off, the placement of the emperor's node is typically right above the end knot on the omote (public) side. in the case of this style of hilt, where there is no pass through for the ito in the "kashira", you will have to come up with a different way to finish off the wrap. you can't really cross the ito over the kashira either because you may need to remove it for future maintenance and it will also partially block the sound. I've used different versions of what's referred to as a gunto knot on sabers like this and it works well but it does kind of throw off the placements a bit since it's slightly different than a standard knot and it's typically reversed since what's usually the public facing side then becomes the opposite... I know, confusing. your best bet is to place it as close to the bottom on the side you choose to be the omote. I would personally go by the tsuba design to determine this. the proper way to view a katana is to have the blade facing right, with the edge up. looking at it this way either displayed on a stand or worn in an obi on the left hip is the correct way. in your case, face the emitter end to the right and since your "blade" doesn't have an edge, you want to turn it so the waves on the tsuba are in the correct position (right side up). so emitter to the right, waves on tsuba in correct position. the side you are viewing when this is done will be the omote side. this is where your tsukamaki starts, with the single flat strip of ito at the top. the hilt below shows the omote side and how the maki should begin and end on this side. I would place the emperor's node in the first or second opening near the pommel end on this side. you can see below where it would be in a more traditional situation. I think I've included an emperor's node on maybe only two saber wraps. this could be tricky. on a typical wooden handle, you can easily adjust for the thickness of the skin in the area of the emperor's node by carving more wood. obviously, this isn't an option for a saber hilt so instead of adjusting the hilt, you'll likely have to file down the underside of the samegawa or it can be too thick to seat well. other areas of the skin will be a lot thinner and will take less prep to fit right. there are also other complications such as having very narrow channels as opposed to actual katana tsuka. this becomes a bit limiting and can cause issues when the skin is thick or the emperor's node is very big. it took a lot of prep and adjusting to get this hilt to work with a large node (see below). I had to reinforce the corners of the ito near the node so it wouldn't keep spreading. to be honest, I'd actually recommend not using the emperor's node if it's very large but maybe include some of the secondary nodes instead. depending on the overall quality of the skin you bought, you may be able to use the side areas instead of the central line of nodes and still wind up with higher than average quality but slightly thinner samegawa. if going with the emperor's node, placement can be tricky if you're not used to doing tsukamaki. obviously, you want the node to appear unobstructed when finished so the placement has to be precise and coordinated with the way you wrap the rest of the hilt. if you don't place it correctly or can't keep your wrap on track while going, it can easily wind up falling under the ito instead of in an opening. again, another reason you might want to go with a more standard piece without the emperor's node. lastly, using kusune is good for saber hilts as it's tacky enough to hold the ito in place but not so permanent like modern glue so you won't damage the hilt, in case you want to redo it later on. just a little rubbing alcohol removes kusune from metal fairly easily. the pitch glue you linked could work if it's not too brittle, which they state it is not. typically, camping pitch can be harder than kusune and I've had it shatter before. they sometimes add charcoal, which makes it harder and more brittle. kusune should be tacky but not too tacky and pliable but not too soft. it wasn't meant to be as permanent as glue or to hold things together in the same way. I've felt 100 year old kusune and it was still tacky! if you can lightly coat the underside of the ito with it, it should be fine. if it's too hard and skates over the silk like glass, it won't do you much good. you may have to pre-warm it before using. just hold it in your hands for about 5-10 minutes until it softens slightly and becomes tacky to the touch. always test things out on scrap first. oh, and you might want to be extra careful using kusune on white ito. white ito is hard enough to keep clean as is but if you get the pitch on your fingers and then on the ito, it will get all kinds of messy. good luck with your project. practice a lot before you commit and feel free to ask any more questions you may have. you might want to join the katana craft group on facebook for more help. ps - I had to make a special "sashigane" to hold the hilt while wrapping. traditionally, a piece of metal shaped similar to a sword's nakago would be used but I had to make one out of wood in this case. basically, a 1" diameter wood dowl, that I placed a furniture pad on the end of so it wouldn't scratch the led lens. you insert it like a blade and then tighten the blade screw so it's secure. now you can mount the other end to a table/desk like you would a regular sashigane. I also flattened out both sides of the dowl so it wouldn't roll while I'm working. Hi Josh, Thank you so much for this. It's honestly my fault for waiting so long! The install took a while because I needed to reprint a new chassis to fit the electronics I wanted, which took a while to print, and then whole thing became a bit of a difficult electronics install/learning curve that took me a while to overcome. On the other hand, I always enjoy learning something new so am looking forward to trying it on my own! These pointers are super helpful. I was especially wondering how to do the knot at the bottom since there was no way to run it through the "kashima" and saw a few videos of people managing to do it, but it did look rather difficult. I will definitely take my time and practice a lot, which is why I bought a ton of synthetic white ito to use up first before I work with the actual silk. I remember you telling me how messy white can get and I can only imagine this is more difficult with glue. I also went and purchased the Namikama #2 skin as I read on your page it was the best one but that was before I realized that's probably more ideal for a full wrap actual katana so I think, unfortunately, the nodes will be rather juicy ones I also need to lacquer it in black since that's the color it is in the game so have some nice hobby spray paints for that which should give it a nice gloss. I'll take care to cut it out if I can't fit it properly but considering I'm already paying the premium I'd really rather use it. I'll see what I can do. It would be a shame to waste them though. A few more questions (I will also look for the katana group after this). I should first add that my particular saber will have something more in line with a traditional "blade" as I am getting a custom made one with an edge that lights up. There is a vendor who has recently taken to making katana blades for lightsabers like mine with even a visible "hamon" and it's quite cool! (See link below, very short clip of demo) So in this instance, I could in theory do it with the blade edge facing right. My question is should the waves still be facing the correct way in this instance? I ask because there are two things of note on my particular saber that may make a difference with the direction placement. The first is on the emitter itself is actually a symbol of the mountain pass of Tsushima that looks like two overlapping triangles. It is supposed to mimic the direction it's in on the character's sheathe, which is pointed toward the edge. So wearing the saber on my left hip makes this work. Secondly, there is hole with a kill switch that I will have styled as a "mekugi" which would only display on my left as well. The other side of the hilt doesn't have this hole and I'd rather show it off on the omote side in this case. So ideally on the left hip works for both these features, but this places my waves "upside down" so to speak, that is the top of the waves facing toward the left away from the edge. I could in theory reposition it so it's facing correctly, however, it would require taking the install apart quite a bit to reposition the wiring. I'd rather avoid this but I also don't want it to look "improper" so am willing to do the painstaking work if necessary. What are your thoughts in this case? And thanks for the tip on the "sashigane." I was also trying to figure out how to hold it in place while I wrapped. I have a vice here with some rubber grips but was afraid it might still cause damage.
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