|
Post by rockmyzad on Oct 25, 2022 12:57:18 GMT
I carry a Highland Basket Hilt. I was told that I should refer to it as CLAYMOR & not as a "Basket Hilt" I thought that a "CLAYMORE" was a Big Medieval 2 handed sword,
|
|
|
Post by skelley on Oct 25, 2022 15:28:55 GMT
So, my understanding is that claymore is the anglicized form of claidheamh mór, which means 'big sword' or 'broadsword' according to Gaelic dictionaries, and was organically applied to Scottish basket-hilted broadswords in the late 1600's to early 1700's. It seems that claymore was retroactively applied to most forms of Scottish swords afterwards, like how scimitar is erroneously used to describe most types of eastern curved swords. I'm sure others can give more detailed info but that's what I got.
At the end of the day though it's still a basket-hilted sword, so if that's what you want to call it I don't see an issue at all. It just depends on how precise someone wants to be.
Oh, and welcome to the club friend!
|
|
JakeH
Member
[k4r]
Posts: 77
|
Post by JakeH on Oct 25, 2022 18:06:04 GMT
Bang on Skelley! That matches what we can find from the contemporary sources. Paul Wagner and Chris Thompson did an article on this some years ago (For the Spada II collection if I recall correctly). That was their conclusion and not much has come up since to change it. A lot of the confusion was brought about by the Victorian English essentially 'making things up to sound authoritative' as they were prone to do. eg. there's no such thing as a 'claybeg'. That's an entirely made-up term. I think a big part of the muddle comes from the word ' mór' which is often parsed to English as 'great', then associated with 'great swords' (another taxonomic fish kettle), and so *seems* a better fit to the Highland two-hander - which weren't even all that big compared to Lowland or Continental two-handers. Several poor assumptions leading to a bad outcome. 'Great' can certainly mean 'big' without the connotations of 'impressive', 'grandiose', 'humongous' or 'dear god look at the size of that thing!'. When his friends and neighbours mentioned Angus Mór, they more likely meant 'Big Angus' rather than 'Angus the Great' which has a different connotation. So we know for a fact that the Scottish Basked-Hilted Broadsword was called a claidheamh mór/claymore during the period which it was in use. It was also called a 'broadsword' in the same era. The Highland two-hander MAY have been called a claymore during the time of it's use - since claidheamh mór means 'big sword' it's certainly a big sword. However, there's no attestations to that from the period the two-hander was in use. There are some from well after, but that fits with Skelley's 'scimitar' analogy. Mostly it's fuzzy. Sometimes, terminology isn't as neat as 21st Century minds (or those pesky Victorians) would like. Or, as I tell my own students: "in any time or place, if someone said "Son, fetch my sword", (or indeed " Mhic, thoir mo chlaidheamh") the boy would have known what you meant." Someone else do ' rapier' next Cheers, Jake
|
|
|
Post by RambleTree on Oct 26, 2022 12:40:59 GMT
May have been discussed elsewhere, and/or hearsay:
I remembering hearing/reading somewhere along the way about Basket Hilt Claymore's sometimes being salvaged from older sword blades. I.e. take granpa's old sword blade and rehilt it with better hand protection. Either shorten the business end (maybe it was chipped/broken), or grind a new tang section out of the forte, etc.
So, perhaps re-using old blades was one vector for terminology following the actual physical blade? -------------
An observation about the term 'claybeg'. The Gaeilge (Irish) word for 'small' is 'beag'. Pronounced roughly 'byug'. Probably similar in Scots Gaelic. Even with claybeg being an invented term, the Victorian English could have used it to differentiate between a 'small' sword and a big sword (basket hilt single-hand sword vs. two handed sword).
|
|
|
Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 26, 2022 14:04:18 GMT
If someone says "Scottish Basket Hilt" I know what is meant. If someone says "Claymore" I have to ask whether he means the twohander or the basket hilt.
|
|
|
Post by sedagyh on Dec 18, 2022 8:44:52 GMT
I've been studying and practicing with many Scottish Broadswords over 11 years and, the back sword was mostly ceremonial. The Broadsword is ment to be warn slightly lower off the hip, compared to almost every other sword. The part of the basket was to provide defense when drawing the blade if your attacker tried to stab or grab your hand, which would happen, and it was a great punching tool as well. Most often clansmen would also have a targe and a dirk in the other hand, again the basket helped when in a close grapple. 192.168.100.1 192.168.1.1
|
|
|
Post by fullofmorisg on Mar 2, 2024 20:32:54 GMT
I am interested in getting to know luter, lex asif -timba
|
|
|
Post by tweet on Mar 3, 2024 6:39:23 GMT
|
|