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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 21, 2022 21:55:28 GMT
So I’m not super into guns (not against them and I do have a Ruger for emergencies), but I do collect antiques and might want to buy odd service revolvers from the 19th-early20th century. Is it worth getting a C&R and how much hoops do you have to go through?
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tera
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Post by tera on Oct 21, 2022 23:32:14 GMT
No special license is required to collect old firearms. Even old NFA items can be bought individually (especially those made/registered prior to May 1986). This is a pretty good rundown of what a C&R does and does not do for you: www.classicfirearms.com/news/general/what-is-a-cr-license/IMO, more trouble than it's worth.
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Post by UkroAm Swordsman on Oct 23, 2022 2:58:00 GMT
So I’m not super into guns (not against them and I do have a Ruger for emergencies), but I do collect antiques and might want to buy odd service revolvers from the 19th-early20th century. Is it worth getting a C&R and how much hoops do you have to go through? I used to have one myself. Aside from filling out the application form and sending it in with the filing fee there aren't any other hoops to jump through. You do have to maintain a logbook and log each purchase or sale made on said license, including the seller and buyer's contact info and FFL number if necessary. You also need to provide a copy for the each seller or buyer (if the buyer is an FFL holder.) If the revolvers you are interested are pre-1899 it probably isn't worth it. If, however you plan to buy ones made from 1899 to the 1970's and do it online then the C&R will streamline the process by cutting out the hassle of having to do an FFL transfer. If you buy 2 or more guns during the license's 3 year valid period then it will pay for itself in savings by you not have to pay transfer fees to a dealer. If you have any questions about the license and application process I would be happy to answer to the best of my ability.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 23, 2022 3:27:39 GMT
I think I’m going to follow Tera’s advice. I’m not gonna be buying that much. Maybe a Type 26 and rifle to go with the type 3 sword I own. The following story made me want to complete the late war set www.thearmorylife.com/japanese-type-26-revolver/All the extra book keeping would make me nervous. Better that be the dealer’s problem.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 23, 2022 15:47:14 GMT
And now that I think about it: shipping a gun to me sounds like a recipe for disaster. I’ve had porch pirates and a crazy mailman try to steal my swords (narrowly foiled), imagine the disaster if a gun, even a dated one was stolen and used in crimes. For all I know I’d be blamed. No, better to do it the old fashioned way and make all of this the dealer’s problem. If it had other benefits like say reciprocity in Canada (it’s not like anybody even makes type26 ammo so it’s effectively a dead gun!) I could see the license being good but, guess it was just another one of my dumb ideas.
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tera
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Post by tera on Oct 23, 2022 16:21:34 GMT
The book keeping isn't that bad if you have a system and are used to/trained in it. I used to work in firearms operations and was responsible for the Bound Book of a location of a national chain FFL. We had proprietary software, but I believe the ATF even has a free application out there for smaller FFLs/Licensees to use. Just make sure to check every field in your A&D Record against the actual steel. NEVER assume. A "never assume" I recall were Springfield 1911s. Springfield USA isn't the same as the original government Armory, but it's still a US company. The XD line and Helian are known Croatian imports, but surely a good 'ole 1911 is made in the US, right? Well, most are... But there was a specific model I had to slap some guys on the wrists about. There was the Springfield 1911A1, which looked like a faithful reproduction of a WWII GI piece. What's more American? So, for the manufacturer info our guys would put Springfield's info, and Importer "none". Except, if you looked under the dust cover you'd find cheap etchings of the manufacturer's info... in Brazil. That made Springfield the Importer, so that's two fields they'd get wrong just by not checking the steel correctly. Honestly, the ATF is more than happy to work with you to keep your A/D record or Bound Book in good order. Our local branch came buy one day, gave a presentation, even brought donuts. There are approved remediation steps for correcting mistakes, you just need to know what those are and do them correctly. Forms only got ugly when someone "corrected" something wrong and the "correction" needed correction. Those got confusing and hard to interpret. So, again, you can totally do it. Maintaining a complete and accurate Bound Book used to be my job, and some days we'd get over 200 guns in. Every. Single. One. got steel checked when entered on the Bound Book. You get the hang of it. Being out of the industry now, though, my personal opinion is I'd rather that liability be on some other FFL. Firearms law can shift in the wind. When I worked Ops, you might get slapped or ultimately demoted/terminated by Corporate for too many or too serious an error but the ATF held the entity whose name was on the FFL accountable, not some clerk. I'd rather not be that entity, so that's just my 2 cents. There are plenty of people out there with C&R's, though, and I've transferred to them when working Ops, so as long as you do your homework it's do-able if you're interested. Helpful FAQ from the horse's mouth: www.atf.gov/qa-category/collectorsEDIT: I won't touch on Politics, but since you mention Canada, I strongly suggest getting familiar with their CURRENT Firearms regulations if you ever plan on living/visiting. Those have changed, full stop.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 23, 2022 16:33:25 GMT
Yes I’ve heard about Canada and the handgun law and know they were heavily restricted before although I don’t know why they don’t make exceptions for antiques. I don’t want to get into politics either and I’m not very political anyways. I’m thinking maybe for now though, it’s best to just let my dealer be the one to sort things out. Guess I could also ask my brother for advice as he’s the one with an old gun collection. I’m kind of glad swords are a zero paper work thing apart from import/export.
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tera
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Post by tera on Oct 23, 2022 16:46:00 GMT
That doesn't hurt. You can always apply for a C&R at a later date while still collecting the same models individually. It's not like a commercial license you have to have before doing business. In fact, using a C&R to buy/sell for business purposes (profit) is on the no-no list of use-cases.
The only difference is cost of FFL transfers, really. If you find a local store and get to know the owner they may even give you a break on those. Some places charge one fee for pistol, another for rifle. Maybe you could negotiate always paying the lower rate as I can tell you from personal experience there is zero difference in complexity when doing the A&D process on the Bound Book from the FFL's perspective.
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Post by eastman on Oct 23, 2022 20:58:46 GMT
I have a Type 03 FFL (aka C&R). I just sent my renewal form in this past week.
I used to do a fair amount of interstate travel. With the Type 03, if I saw something in another state that was interesting to me I could buy across state lines. If I tried to buy a pre-WWII pistol without the FFL for example, I would need to pay that dealer to ship it to a dealer in my state and then pay again for a transfer. There is an easy $70-100 added to the price. The closest dealer to me charges $85 for an incoming transfer (way too much $$ IMO).
Many years ago, I was in the Fort Worth Cabela's location and they brought out 8-10 Walther P-38s to see if any of them were old enough to qualify.
Second big advantage - I used to live in a state with a waiting period. Anything that qualified under the Type 03 FFL bypassed the 4473 paperwork and the IL waiting period. That saved me 400-500 miles of driving over the years.
There are a couple of really unusual items I am looking for, so it improves my odds should I find them.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 29, 2022 4:24:13 GMT
That’s actually a good point. A lot of the best deals on old swords are on swords shows that are out of state. Never tried that with firearms because the complexity of out of state buying. That and being able to order ammo easier might mean I bite. Also this is what kept me busy last couple of days. I kinda like how compact it feels to other old service weapons/revolvers. My hands are not on the bigger side so it really is smaller than it looks. The colt single action army a friend had felt much bigger and the particular colt this replaced was enormous compared to it. Kinda feels like a missing link between modern and archaic. Fun fact: my RJT gunto is a whole generation it’s junior in age if not design.
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Post by eastman on Oct 29, 2022 16:07:47 GMT
Jackson Armory in Dallas TX is a gun museum with pricetags. Had 2 occasions of making in person purchases of C&R items while visiting TX (back when I lived in IL, a place they don't ship to).
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tera
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Post by tera on Oct 29, 2022 16:23:00 GMT
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 29, 2022 17:55:04 GMT
That’s a really nice threading. Most I’ve seen obliterate the front sight. If I had a spare barrel I would consider it. It’s not like there weren’t historical suppressed examples. Speaking about that, are there any businesses selling spare parts? They’re supposed to be very good for target shooting on SA but I’m afraid to use mine for fear the firing pin, which seems to have gone brittle on some of these antiques could break. Tried to look for pins and hammers and cylinders and barrels so I could repair if anything goes wrong it doesn’t just break for good. Then again maybe I shouldn’t be using a hundred year old + piece. Also do you think these would be enough to protect the pin while dry firing? www.amazon.com/7-62x38-Nagant-Snap-7-62mm-M1895/dp/B08HW5MLTD
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tera
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Post by tera on Oct 29, 2022 21:57:05 GMT
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 30, 2022 4:37:33 GMT
Unfortunately they and every other spare parts seller I looked at is out of the parts I want most like the pin. I’m afraid I’ll have to buy a broken m1895 and canibalize it for spare parts.
I had one of these in the past, back when they were cheap enough for a broke college student. Gave it away, missed it and treated myself to a replacement. Maybe there’s cosmoline gunk or something slowing the mechanism since the trigger pull is more brutal than I recall. Then again my trigger finger was severely injured while repairing a gunto lock and there’s some nerve damage so maybe that’s all that happened. If so practicing on da will make good physical therapy.
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Post by eastman on Oct 30, 2022 22:45:04 GMT
one of the motivators to get the Type 03 FFL was a trip to TX and seeing the case full of $99 Nagant revolvers and not being able to buy one. When I got home, I found out the Cabela's in IL didn't stock them.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 31, 2022 2:41:55 GMT
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Post by eastman on Oct 31, 2022 3:05:36 GMT
I wasn't looking to buy a whole crate of them, but I would have bought the pair (Officer's DA and NCO SA) if they were available.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Oct 31, 2022 3:24:27 GMT
Too bad. A crate full would be worth a small fortune nowadays.
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Post by Drunk Merchant on Nov 7, 2022 3:01:18 GMT
Update, the spare parts worry is moot as my brother turns out to have a decent cache he’s nice enough to share. Also, I am gonna go for getting a c&r since what the harm? Attachments:
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