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Post by howler on Oct 8, 2022 20:01:23 GMT
I really do want to give one a try, looks like such a smart weapon design. Perfect anti-armor tool no doubt. Let's not get carried away. If it were a "perfect" anti-armor weapon, we would have seen some version of it developed in many places across the armor wearing world. It's a decent design, for what it is and when it was, but it doesn't "...Solve a Problem Like Maria..." better than many other armor foiling weapons. I think a pole-axe type weapon would be ideal, but only knife, dagger, swords allowed, so I'm not even sure if the CS Sword Breaker would classify, as it's a long, thin bar mace with a point. In any case, I use mine near the door as an "enhanced" baseball bat for potential goon squad control...and the unlikely event of armored knights riding in on giant lobsters.
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Post by howler on Oct 8, 2022 20:07:02 GMT
In the end, I think a longsword you can wield one or two handed that has a durable yet penetrating point would be the best general choice. A sword used against armored knights, which still gives you flexibility of other uses, like against people, wild animals, things you would deal with more often.
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Post by blairbob on Oct 10, 2022 3:44:39 GMT
I'm not sure what is worse, a 300lb lobster or 300lb monstrous bird.
Phorusrhacos, 8' tall and just under 300lbs of Murderous Terror bird. semprini that. I'd rather take on a small bear or huge sempriniing wolf or cougar (still nope).
I missed the old threads and since it can only be swords, and knives, I would pack a giant sempriniing sword basically to use as a spear. Basically a Nagamaki that wasn't quite one so it's still a sword.
And a lot of sempriniing knives to throw. I would have more knives than I can eat Taco Bell tacos and I would probably force myself to eat two dozen just so i could carry 30 knives for this venture.
I suppose I would have a large sempriniing dagger just in case, I was totally out of knifes and my stupid long sword spear was broken or out of my hands besides just a side carry (and short sword).
It really wouldn't matter what my other swords and knives were so long as I had one stupid long sword, possibly two to carry in my hands besides whatever as my side carry's. And 2 dozen knives.
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Post by zabazagobo on Oct 10, 2022 4:01:48 GMT
I really do want to give one a try, looks like such a smart weapon design. Perfect anti-armor tool no doubt. Let's not get carried away. If it were a "perfect" anti-armor weapon, we would have seen some version of it developed in many places across the armor wearing world. It's a decent design, for what it is and when it was, but it doesn't "...Solve a Problem Like Maria..." better than many other armor foiling weapons. This is true. I mean, a good ol' warhammer with a crow's beak does the trick mighty fine
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Post by Tiers1 on Oct 12, 2022 21:56:26 GMT
When I think about this kind of scenario, I imagine that the combatant would have high quality plate armor from crown to sole...it would seem very foolish to fight something possessing the lethality of a brown bear or worse without it. I agree that unarmored, the absolute best case scenario is taking the creature with you or perhaps maiming it. With armor...well if we are talking low fantasy monsters (as in, they are rooted in actual biology and don't have magical powers) then the primary weapons of claws and teeth are alot less dangerous so we are left with blunt force impact and struggles on the ground. I think the chances of survival are thus a good bit better if the combatant is well conditioned and trained, with appropriate weapons. If we are thinking low fantasy, and considering the brown bear as our 'model' then we can assume that the creature will basically be insensible to pain when attacking and thus needs to have it's actual biological systems rendered inoperable as quickly as possible. This makes me think we need something that cuts ferociously; A robust thrusting sword could work, but it would take time, which is not a currency we have to spare when dealing with a brown bear type of threat. Of course cuts are more demanding of spacing and position. I am thinking something along the lines of a dadao...which delivers a powerful shearing cut and can have it's thrusting point formed in such a way to create a very wide wound channel. My thinking is that survival would be based on reducing the creatures fighting effectiveness as quickly as possible via trauma and blood loss. A morbid thread but an interesting one.
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Post by blairbob on Oct 12, 2022 22:16:08 GMT
I remember the Bear suit that one guy in Canada tried to design and I would not trust even the bestest heaviest plate design to not be torn to semprini from an angry Brown/Grizzly bear.
Too many openings. I'm not sure if Chain can survive a jaw bite from a bear or big feline or gator/croc/hippo in the gaps besides the likely that straps would get torn to semprini.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2022 0:06:02 GMT
When I think about this kind of scenario, I imagine that the combatant would have high quality plate armor from crown to sole...it would seem very foolish to fight something possessing the lethality of a brown bear or worse without it. I agree that unarmored, the absolute best case scenario is taking the creature with you or perhaps maiming it. With armor...well if we are talking low fantasy monsters (as in, they are rooted in actual biology and don't have magical powers) then the primary weapons of claws and teeth are alot less dangerous so we are left with blunt force impact and struggles on the ground. I think the chances of survival are thus a good bit better if the combatant is well conditioned and trained, with appropriate weapons. If we are thinking low fantasy, and considering the brown bear as our 'model' then we can assume that the creature will basically be insensible to pain when attacking and thus needs to have it's actual biological systems rendered inoperable as quickly as possible. This makes me think we need something that cuts ferociously; A robust thrusting sword could work, but it would take time, which is not a currency we have to spare when dealing with a brown bear type of threat. Of course cuts are more demanding of spacing and position. I am thinking something along the lines of a dadao...which delivers a powerful shearing cut and can have it's thrusting point formed in such a way to create a very wide wound channel. My thinking is that survival would be based on reducing the creatures fighting effectiveness as quickly as possible via trauma and blood loss. A morbid thread but an interesting one. Cutting is a finicky way of maiming. With something moving as fast and as twitchy as a bear would, against its flexed and mobile muscle groups and thick thick fur, I would not bother with cutting unless I was using a pole Axe. Even then I would stick to thrusting Armour wouldn't really be enough against a bear, considering they can pry open a metal door like nothing. Armour basically just hangs on a person connecting by leather straps. If one wanted to, they could jam a rondell between the plates and get past it. A medieval set of armour wouldn't be enough. However, those metal, spikey, bear armour designs might at least injure the bear as it kills you. One downward swipe of its claw could break a moose spine, so I dunno how well a fragile human bone would handle when even a chimp could rip us apart as if we were made of softened clay
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2022 0:08:25 GMT
This, over some polypropylene motorcycle armour, or hardened steel armour, might do pretty well, on some level.
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Post by howler on Oct 13, 2022 0:47:17 GMT
When I think about this kind of scenario, I imagine that the combatant would have high quality plate armor from crown to sole...it would seem very foolish to fight something possessing the lethality of a brown bear or worse without it. I agree that unarmored, the absolute best case scenario is taking the creature with you or perhaps maiming it. With armor...well if we are talking low fantasy monsters (as in, they are rooted in actual biology and don't have magical powers) then the primary weapons of claws and teeth are alot less dangerous so we are left with blunt force impact and struggles on the ground. I think the chances of survival are thus a good bit better if the combatant is well conditioned and trained, with appropriate weapons. If we are thinking low fantasy, and considering the brown bear as our 'model' then we can assume that the creature will basically be insensible to pain when attacking and thus needs to have it's actual biological systems rendered inoperable as quickly as possible. This makes me think we need something that cuts ferociously; A robust thrusting sword could work, but it would take time, which is not a currency we have to spare when dealing with a brown bear type of threat. Of course cuts are more demanding of spacing and position. I am thinking something along the lines of a dadao...which delivers a powerful shearing cut and can have it's thrusting point formed in such a way to create a very wide wound channel. My thinking is that survival would be based on reducing the creatures fighting effectiveness as quickly as possible via trauma and blood loss. A morbid thread but an interesting one. Cutting is a finicky way of maiming. With something moving as fast and as twitchy as a bear would, against its flexed and mobile muscle groups and thick thick fur, I would not bother with cutting unless I was using a pole Axe. Even then I would stick to thrusting Armour wouldn't really be enough against a bear, considering they can pry open a metal door like nothing. Armour basically just hangs on a person connecting by leather straps. If one wanted to, they could jam a rondell between the plates and get past it. A medieval set of armour wouldn't be enough. However, those metal, spikey, bear armour designs might at least injure the bear as it kills you. One downward swipe of its claw could break a moose spine, so I dunno how well a fragile human bone would handle when even a chimp could rip us apart as if we were made of softened clay And the bear does not even need getting inside the armor in order to bite, tear, rip with claws & teeth. As Trap noted, a downward swipe of its claw could break a moose spine, so think CONCUSSIVE force that's frankly hard to imagine. A bear swipe to the helmet would break your neck, crack your skull & send your brain jiggling around inside that cracked skull causing instant death. A long blade stabbing a bears neck & face is best, otherwise hope you can penetrate all that insulating fat, muscle, fur without hitting bone in order to hit the heart & spine. Brown and Polar bear are as real life monsters as one would see walking the Earth.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Oct 13, 2022 1:01:18 GMT
Can we have dogs? That would solve a number of issues
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Post by Tiers1 on Oct 13, 2022 1:13:18 GMT
Fair enough, good points all. A cut from a cut focused sword can be horrifyingly effective, but it requires a number of variables to be in place for that to happen on a person, let alone a 650 lb monster...'finicky' is a good description. I agree in principal with the notion of the thrust...but I just think any strike that didn't hit a critical system component would be totally ignored...even people from what I understand were able to keep fighting for quite a while with thrust wounds. I feel there is a better chance of a very very sharp cut focused sword slowing down or reducing the creatures fighting effectiveness more quickly...but I could of course be wrong. I suppose then that something with the size and strength of a bear would relegate the sword to it's actual real-world use as a back up weapon, unless in our low-fantasy monster inhabited world we simultaneously have some superpowers for the people that fight the monsters. Still, I think if we consider monsters in the (roughly) folkloric context, werewolves, vampires, and Cthulhu cultists would have the strength of several people rather than that of a bear or even a gorilla. Full plate with chain and gambeson underneath and the right weapons with training would I think do the job there. Now if we are talking a beast of 1000lbs and the coat and hide of a bear, well to be honest that is pretty friggin impressive even for a monster, and puts a exclamation point that we have actual animals with 'monster' type capabilities for physical harm walking around, however they aren't intelligent and malicious.
Honestly though when I think of something big and cleaver-y like the shade blades 'war wolf' (I have one) with it's hair popping convex edge, heavy weight, wide blade, and leverage, I think someone really strong and a bit lucky could take on something pretty mean, perhaps not brown bear mean, but mean enough.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 13, 2022 1:15:03 GMT
That's why I brought in the tiny European Brown Bears with only 300 lb not Grizzly, Polar etc. With such a "minor monster" I see at least a minimal chance to hit with a lucky thrust.
A 300 lb dog? Two 150 lb dogs? Make my day?
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Oct 13, 2022 1:49:52 GMT
Of course you had!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2022 23:55:46 GMT
Cutting is a finicky way of maiming. With something moving as fast and as twitchy as a bear would, against its flexed and mobile muscle groups and thick thick fur, I would not bother with cutting unless I was using a pole Axe. Even then I would stick to thrusting Armour wouldn't really be enough against a bear, considering they can pry open a metal door like nothing. Armour basically just hangs on a person connecting by leather straps. If one wanted to, they could jam a rondell between the plates and get past it. A medieval set of armour wouldn't be enough. However, those metal, spikey, bear armour designs might at least injure the bear as it kills you. One downward swipe of its claw could break a moose spine, so I dunno how well a fragile human bone would handle when even a chimp could rip us apart as if we were made of softened clay And the bear does not even need getting inside the armor in order to bite, tear, rip with claws & teeth. As Trap noted, a downward swipe of its claw could break a moose spine, so think CONCUSSIVE force that's frankly hard to imagine. A bear swipe to the helmet would break your neck, crack your skull & send your brain jiggling around inside that cracked skull causing instant death. A long blade stabbing a bears neck & face is best, otherwise hope you can penetrate all that insulating fat, muscle, fur without hitting bone in order to hit the heart & spine. Brown and Polar bear are as real life monsters as one would see walking the Earth. Yea basically this sums it up. I've heard of bears tearing open RV campers. While hardened steel is stronger than aluminum, I doubt the leather straps that hold it to your body is Lance: that's a neat excerpt. I always felt it would be more possible to fight a bear if it's smaller. I would rather fight the tiny black bears I have near my home town, than a grizzly or polar bear
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Post by Tiers1 on Oct 14, 2022 0:30:38 GMT
Right, as earlier stated it really does depend on the kind of monster. I tend to group them into folkloric monsters, and then monsters purpose built for entertainment properties of one kind or another. It's been awhile since I plumbed the depths of folkloric monsters, but from what I recall they tend to be less deadly and more dispatchable then what is found in fiction for fiction's sake.
Vampires, werewolves (or were-animals), evil witches, and cultist type individuals are present in most cultures in one form or another. So are zombies / ghoul type things. These are all generally vulnerable to having their limbs or heads lopped off and while stronger and faster than a person, are not on the level of a brown bear. I would perhaps put them at black bear class...maybe a black bear that works out. Hence I think where a goodly number of folkloric monsters are concerned, mail over chain over gambeson, excellent training and conditioning, and the right weapons might be enough.
Heck my favorite cold weapons + gothic horror and monsters game of all time, Bloodborne, doesn't have that many creatures as large and strong and fast as a big brown bear, when I really think about it (save some of the bosses).
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Post by blairbob on Oct 14, 2022 0:44:07 GMT
Hey, How do you a hunt a bear?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2022 1:07:07 GMT
Right, as earlier stated it really does depend on the kind of monster. I tend to group them into folkloric monsters, and then monsters purpose built for entertainment properties of one kind or another. It's been awhile since I plumbed the depths of folkloric monsters, but from what I recall they tend to be less deadly and more dispatchable then what is found in fiction for fiction's sake. Vampires, werewolves (or were-animals), evil witches, and cultist type individuals are present in most cultures in one form or another. So are zombies / ghoul type things. These are all generally vulnerable to having their limbs or heads lopped off and while stronger and faster than a person, are not on the level of a brown bear. I would perhaps put them at black bear class...maybe a black bear that works out. Hence I think where a goodly number of folkloric monsters are concerned, mail over chain over gambeson, excellent training and conditioning, and the right weapons might be enough. Heck my favorite cold weapons + gothic horror and monsters game of all time, Bloodborne, doesn't have that many creatures as large and strong and fast as a big brown bear, when I really think about it (save some of the bosses). Yea i generally like to consider fantasy creatures their own thing. Tbh, it's why I prefer a more human monster. It feels more realistic to be battling against. Like witigo (or as most call them, wendego), skin walkers, ghouls, zombies animated skeletons, rage virus infected people, possessed people, or even something like a minotaur, would be pretty good for a realistic opponent to beat. Against all those, a falchion, or any type of cleaving weapon might be good. Even if it doesn't kill them, it will have a hard time killing you without arms
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Oct 14, 2022 1:48:29 GMT
A pack of dogs can run the prey and tire it. Also give minor wounds to aggravate.
Also, there is nothing saying you do this alone.
Having said that...something as bait. Pack of hunting dogs.. About 20 cavalry...
Just saying....no need to be lunch for the 300lb Lobster
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2022 2:45:19 GMT
My thoughts regarding the illustration. Even your average-sized, 400-500lb or so, typical brown bear is being overestimated a bit. Most bears are not the giant Kodiaks. They aren't hitting harder on a frog-mouth helmet(what appears to be in the illustration) than a steel-tipped lance from a 1750lb galloping warhorse/rider. It won't know or understand how to deal with the suspension keeping the armor on the wearer, either. So all that stuff about it ripping it off is all easier said than done when the person is also stabbing it with an enormous rondell dagger. The rondell can also be used at zero distance, he can reinforce it against his breast plate if he is being smothered, etc. Think about this stuff a little bit guys I mean Hugh Glass survived a bear attack with no armor at all and he was not exactly the equivalent of a knight. Normal people survive their attacks somtimes nowadays as well. Yea but those arent really something people have been able to do consistently. It happens, but it's not exactly a common skill. When I thought of how small a bear could be, I realized it's probably possible. I'm still sticking with an estoc. If they are used successfully to regularly take down charging bulls, then it's the only modern thing we could compare as far as swords go. The only thing I am aware of. Maybe there is a remote village that kills large predetor animals on a daily basis with steel bladed instruments
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Post by Tiers1 on Oct 14, 2022 2:54:31 GMT
It's true that while a bear has the ability to immediately go for the haymaker and pry off your armor, that probably isn't what it will always do, and some of it's available options leave it vulnerable to being attacked pretty effectively if the right weapon is employed. However I again think of entertainment properties out there lol...even Guts from Berserk and the hunter from Bloodborne use firearms (and they both have low level superpowers). A monster hunter, if such a thing actually existed and the monsters being hunted were possible to overcome solo or in small numbers, would utilize a complement of weapons in addition to their full armor. Personally, I imagine a large and heavy rondel dagger, a very well sharpened wide bladed shearing sword with a quickly widening point, and some sort of shotgun type firearm. Maybe a wide lugged spear that can be braced into the ground. A key point for me is that most folkloric monsters are pretty insensible to pain so functionality has to be removed as quickly as possible.
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