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Post by yelman on Jul 21, 2022 22:09:23 GMT
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jul 21, 2022 22:41:03 GMT
It is an 1897 pattern infantry officer's sword, denoted by the curved inside of the guard whereas the 1895 has a flat guard to the inside. It is the current regulation (Noted by the E II R on the blade and guard meaning Queen Elizabeth II). I am not sure about the proof disc. IIRC Wilkinson bought Thurkle who I would attribute the disc to long before she became Queen and additionally sometime in the mid 1960s the proof disc was phased out entirely.
It is definitely modern or the grip has been replaced, it would normally be shagreen and this looks Plastic. Currently, Pooley and WKC are the only major companies making this pattern of sword of any relative quality as far as I am aware of.
Gun to my head I couldn't tell you much more, but it's a modern non functional sword as best as I can tell, usable for parade use and nothing else. (Scabbard is a leather field scabbard though, not the nickel/chromed parade scabbard weirdly)
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 21, 2022 22:41:48 GMT
Please help me ID this sword stats: blade-32 inches. Overall-@38 inches. Distal taper @3mm to @half mm. Fuller runs below proof mark to 18 1/4 inches from hilt, heavily engraved inside. My online research suggests this was a ‘tested’ blade, possibly ceremonial, idk. Not a lot of info about tested Wilkinson’s out there. If you know anything about this type of sword, please comment and also about how much it would be worth. Thanks
Footnote 1. There are some historical examples of non-serialized Wilkinson swords sold marked for other makers, but not in the reign of Elizabeth II (1952- ).
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jul 21, 2022 22:42:33 GMT
Also I am working on cleaning a similar blade myself right now, 3mm at the base is almost so thin I am concerned you mistyped. At the thinnest, I have seen a 5mm thickness dress sword. But most "combat" blades of the 1892, 1895, and 1897 at a bare minimum are at least usually 6mm thick, if not 7 or 8mm thick at the base
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jul 21, 2022 22:44:00 GMT
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 21, 2022 22:58:08 GMT
It is an 1897 pattern infantry officer's sword, denoted by the curved inside of the guard whereas the 1895 has a flat guard to the inside. It is the current regulation (Noted by the E II R on the blade and guard meaning Queen Elizabeth II). I am not sure about the proof disc. IIRC Wilkinson bought Thurkle who I would attribute the disc to long before she became Queen and additionally sometime in the mid 1960s the proof disc was phased out entirely. It is definitely modern or the grip has been replaced, it would normally be shagreen and this looks Plastic. Currently, Pooley and WKC are the only major companies making this pattern of sword of any relative quality as far as I am aware of. Gun to my head I couldn't tell you much more, but it's a modern non functional sword as best as I can tell, usable for parade use and nothing else. (Scabbard is a leather field scabbard though, not the nickel/chromed parade scabbard weirdly) IMHO, not a Thurkle proof slug. www.fioredeiliberi.org/antique-swords-uk/articles/thurkle/ Carefully note the sidebar on the "T". I don't currently know what that is.
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jul 21, 2022 23:10:51 GMT
It is an 1897 pattern infantry officer's sword, denoted by the curved inside of the guard whereas the 1895 has a flat guard to the inside. It is the current regulation (Noted by the E II R on the blade and guard meaning Queen Elizabeth II). I am not sure about the proof disc. IIRC Wilkinson bought Thurkle who I would attribute the disc to long before she became Queen and additionally sometime in the mid 1960s the proof disc was phased out entirely. It is definitely modern or the grip has been replaced, it would normally be shagreen and this looks Plastic. Currently, Pooley and WKC are the only major companies making this pattern of sword of any relative quality as far as I am aware of. Gun to my head I couldn't tell you much more, but it's a modern non functional sword as best as I can tell, usable for parade use and nothing else. (Scabbard is a leather field scabbard though, not the nickel/chromed parade scabbard weirdly) IMHO, not a Thurkle proof slug. www.fioredeiliberi.org/antique-swords-uk/articles/thurkle/ Carefully note the sidebar on the "T". I don't currently know what that is. It clearly has to be Thurkle's brother Furkle, what we see as a T is actually an F!
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 21, 2022 23:21:12 GMT
It clearly has to be Thurkle's brother Furkle, what we see as a T is actually an F! ROFL. Just be careful kidding like that. Someone who doesn't know any better will copy it, and it'll be all over YouTube or whatever as gospel. Then some of them will come back here and argue with us about Furkle swords.
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Post by yelman on Jul 21, 2022 23:33:48 GMT
Hilt had a small tear, under high magnification I can confirm it’s leather. If it’s a modern reproduction, why would there be a proof slug at all? Aren’t proof slugs proprietary to Wilkinson? Can other makers just copy the “brand” like that? I don’t get it. Also the distal taper is an approximation only....
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 22, 2022 0:25:09 GMT
Hilt had a small tear, under high magnification I can confirm it’s leather. If it’s a modern reproduction, why would there be a proof slug at all? Aren’t proof slugs proprietary to Wilkinson? Can other makers just copy the “brand” like that? I don’t get it. Also the distal taper is an approximation only.... Some modern reproductions have had proof slugs for appearance' sake.
As soon as Wilkinson started putting proof slugs in his swords, around 1844, his competitors copied the practice, using their own patterns on the discs. Thurkle, Mole, Pillin, and others, had their own patterns, and some also copied the six-pointed star surrounding Wilkinson's proof discs. Many proof-disked swords for the British market (as well as some for USA/CSA and Canadian buyers) actually came from Solingen. I own what is probably one of those, purchased from Benjamin Thurkle for resale by a Canadian outfitter (Gibb & Co) in Montreal, sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/65383/1821p-pattern-canadian-militia-artillery .
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jul 22, 2022 0:55:35 GMT
A ROUGH ROUGH ROUGH general rule of thumb is a British proof disc will read PROVED with a symbol or letter in the middle. Many times, the letter corresponds to the last name of the maker. T for Thurkle, P for Pillin, etc. I just got a WWI era sword made by scissor makers that admirably enough, have their own custom proof disc with a G in the center, for Clement Gray. Solingen blades often used PROOF in the center, and were also fond of using sunbursts around it on the blade as opposed to the damascus triangle.
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Post by yelman on Jul 22, 2022 0:56:03 GMT
Interesting. I mean it’s one thing to copy a blade or hilt style but another thing to copy what I assumed was a ‘trademark.’ I guess patents weren’t a thing back then. I don’t believe there are any contemporary makers making this style of swords with proof slugs? Question still remains who made this sword - if no one can answer I guess I’ll just have to default to Furkle.
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Post by jimmythedonut on Jul 22, 2022 1:02:02 GMT
Interesting. I mean it’s one thing to copy a blade or hilt style but another thing to copy what I assumed was a ‘trademark.’ I guess patents weren’t a thing back then. I don’t believe there are any contemporary makers making this style of swords with proof slugs? Question still remains who made this sword - if no one can answer I guess I’ll just have to default to Furkle. I have looked as well, yours looks very similar in terms of fit and finish to what WKC makes, but I cannot see the other side where they might have a proof disc. I can keep looking after I get back from fencing practice but it is not Pooley sword, they don't use proof discs as far as I can see.
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Post by yelman on Jul 22, 2022 1:22:17 GMT
Thank you Mr Donut
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Post by treeslicer on Jul 22, 2022 1:28:57 GMT
A ROUGH ROUGH ROUGH general rule of thumb is a British proof disc will read PROVED with a symbol or letter in the middle. Many times, the letter corresponds to the last name of the maker. T for Thurkle, P for Pillin, etc. I just got a WWI era sword made by scissor makers that admirably enough, have their own custom proof disc with a G in the center, for Clement Gray. Solingen blades often used PROOF in the center, and were also fond of using sunbursts around it on the blade as opposed to the damascus triangle. Very rough, . Stars are more common for early Thurkle, Wilkinson also used the fleur-de-lis on their "common proof" swords, and IIRC, the sunburst was first used by Reeves in Birmingham, then widely copied. This sort of scholarship remains educated guesswork. The only Victorian era swordmaker whose business records have survived at all is Wilkinson's.
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Post by yelman on Jul 22, 2022 17:19:11 GMT
At this point I have two theories.
Theory one—
Robert Wilkinson-Latham stated: “Military swords sold under contract were usually not marked with a serial number. Swords from the 1900s that have no serial numbers were probably made to sell razor blades.”
Theory two—
It’s a modern replica, however I have been unable to locate a modern manufacturer of these swords who inserts proof plugs, and actually can find no reason for them to do so, as apparently proof plugs were phased out.
If anyone has an opinion/ educated guess about this sword, please chime in. All comments appreciated.
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