Veerdin
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Post by Veerdin on Jun 25, 2022 14:09:17 GMT
So I was recently at a con here in my home city (the first con I've been to in literally 9 years) and in a moment of weakness (and because nothing else at the con was really catching my attention) I bought myself a dreaded con-grade wallhanger sword. Specifically, I purchased a replica of Narsil from LOTR, easily my favorite sword design from the films. The sword was cheap by default and on sale to boot, and since I'd saved up a tonne of money for the con only to be disappointed by the overall selection there, I decided - what the hell? And grabbed myself a new toy. When I got home, however, I decided to take it out of its flimsy cardboard box (complete with no less than 3 featurless foam inserts to pack it! What luxury!) and take a closer look.  I have to say, I'm honestly surprised by the visual quality and the feel of the thing. It's definitely a display piece, but I knew that when I bought it. Despite this, it honestly feels great in the hand and I was able to bust out some basic longsword techniques I remembered from my brief tenure at a HEMA club. The thing is way better balanced than it has any right to be and feels incredibly sturdy, which got me thinking... is this thing actually full tang? I did some research into the sword - I bought it from a company called "Hobby Maniaz" ( here's their site listing for the sword in question) and the page unsurprisingly doesn't provide many details. What it does tell me is that the blade is stainless steel with zinc alloy fittings and PU leather, with a hardwood scabbard. Based on the price I made the correct assumption that this particular model is probably one of many mass-market clones coming out of Asia somewhere, so I went to Ebay. Sure enough, this exact sword model is listed on several shops, all of them with consistent details about its material, size and weight, but none telling me if it's full tang or not. I dove a bit deeper on this sword, and as far as I can tell? It appears to be a clone of the United Cutlery Narsil, which I've seen plenty of favourable reviews for. cheap Asian clones of higher profile swords are nothing new, but it's gotten me wondering as to just how faithful of a copy this is. AFAIK the UC Narsil is a proper full-tang sword, as you'd expect, but I decided to try the magnet trick with this one just in case. Surprisingly, the magnet I used (a small neodinium one which can't stick through very much material) sticks to the handle of the sword all the way up to about the middle of the zinc section of the pommel. This tells me that the sword may, in fact, be full-tang, but I wanted to ask if anybody else here has had any expirience with one of these copies at all. I ask because I'm apparently still a big dumb child and I like to swing my collectibles around from time to time, but I know cheap wallhangers with rat-tail tangs can be dangerous to put under any sort of strain at all, with some liable to rip themselves apart if you so much as shake them too hard. So far this toy of mine feels surprisingly sturdy in the hand but I've been fooled before. Any advice would be appreciated so I don't inadvertdedly drop a few pounds of stainless steel and zinc on my foot. |
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Post by arivendare on Jun 25, 2022 23:43:47 GMT
Odds are this is a wall hanger not a full tang sword. Price (while not always a true teller of quality) can be a pretty good indicator of the quality of an item. In addition to that, most mass produced items especially out of Asia lack the care and attention that a good functional piece may need. Not all (there are a lot of good mass produced companies that have good reputation), but I think your odds of grabbing a dud are higher in this circumstance.
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Post by arivendare on Jun 25, 2022 23:46:16 GMT
Another thought would be, try and unscrew the pommel. Usually the rat tails that I have owned have a pommel that I can unscrew and take apart pretty easily.
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Veerdin
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Post by Veerdin on Jun 26, 2022 6:48:02 GMT
Another thought would be, try and unscrew the pommel. Usually the rat tails that I have owned have a pommel that I can unscrew and take apart pretty easily. I did have this thought as well, there seems to be a part of the pommel that is segmented and looks like it should be able to be unscrewed, but either they've used some kind of adhesive to seal it up or my weak little baby arms just aren't strong enough to uncap it because I can't get it to budge, and I don't want to inadvertedly destroy the damn thing, cheap wallhanger or not it still looks pretty neat and I did buy it primarily to hang up somewhere. |
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Post by arivendare on Jun 26, 2022 13:33:34 GMT
Another thought would be, try and unscrew the pommel. Usually the rat tails that I have owned have a pommel that I can unscrew and take apart pretty easily. I did have this thought as well, there seems to be a part of the pommel that is segmented and looks like it should be able to be unscrewed, but either they've used some kind of adhesive to seal it up or my weak little baby arms just aren't strong enough to uncap it because I can't get it to budge, and I don't want to inadvertedly destroy the damn thing, cheap wallhanger or not it still looks pretty neat and I did buy it primarily to hang up somewhere. We’ll hang it up and enjoy. Swing it around from time to time if you’d like but seems like a gamble to hit anything harder than a cardboard box. Could be full tang, but even if it is you run into a huge next set of questions such as heat treat, construction of the handle, what steel did they use, etc all those things could potentially ruin a blade as well. |
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Veerdin
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Post by Veerdin on Jun 26, 2022 13:49:20 GMT
I did have this thought as well, there seems to be a part of the pommel that is segmented and looks like it should be able to be unscrewed, but either they've used some kind of adhesive to seal it up or my weak little baby arms just aren't strong enough to uncap it because I can't get it to budge, and I don't want to inadvertedly destroy the damn thing, cheap wallhanger or not it still looks pretty neat and I did buy it primarily to hang up somewhere. We’ll hang it up and enjoy. Swing it around from time to time if you’d like but seems like a gamble to hit anything harder than a cardboard box. Could be full tang, but even if it is you run into a huge next set of questions such as heat treat, construction of the handle, what steel did they use, etc all those things could potentially ruin a blade as well. Oh absolutely! I had zero intention to cut anything with this sword, especially not with how blunt it is. I'm not sure the kind of stainless it uses but my guess would be "whatever was cheapest". My main concern with the tang was whether or not the blade would come hurtling out if I did a particularly rough longsword drill with it or something. I did more research into the sword and may have hit on something: Back when UC released their officially liscenced versions of the LOTR swords, a company in Pakistan decided to capitalise on the demand by making almost 1-for-1 copies of the things with cheaper materials (like the zinc alloy fittings and PU leather) and selling them for cheap. Plenty of reviews online of these copies but none of them mention the swords breaking with swings. Assuming they used a real UC blade as a blueprint the chances are they got cheap, full-tang blade blanks to make the swords, which would line up with my magnet test. That said, I wouldn't trust an unsourced stainless steel blade to widthstand anything more than - as you said - a cardboard box, and I'd be leery of even that. Was just curious if anybody here had any expirience with this particular sword or something similar. |
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Post by Lionhardt on Jun 27, 2022 11:59:17 GMT
My two cents on Narsil/Anduril designs.
Almost none of them are "full-tang".
For a sword to be truly full tang, the tang needs to extend all the way through the pommel, one way or another, in my opinion at least. Heck, even the one Peter Lyons made for the movies, the pommel was literally just glued on, so wouldn't really be considered "full tang".
One of the best ones out there is the Darksword Armoury version, and while the pommel IS allegedly peened on somehow, rather than threaded or glued, even it is still not full tang.
I have only seen one full tang Anduril, and it was done for that "Reforged" show. They made it full tang by cutting the pommel part of the tang out to almost exactly match the profile of the pommel. (So the blade itself has the cut out in it to match the pommel.) They then sandwiched it between two pieces of steel and welded it all together. A TRUE full PROFILE tang.
So, could this one have a tang that extends all the way to the pommel, but then is just threaded on? Possibly. Would that be a full tang though anyway? Ehh.... I suppose some may consider it that. I don't consider it full tang unless I can see the tang out the end of the pommel.
But more likely than not, it is a rattail tang welded onto the blade, then threaded onto the pommel.
I hear you though, if you don't HAVE to know, and it holds up enough to some basic swinging, just leave it be and don't risk breaking it to solve the mystery. As others have suggested.
Beautiful sword, no matter how real it is!!
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Veerdin
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Post by Veerdin on Jun 27, 2022 15:19:54 GMT
My two cents on Narsil/Anduril designs. Almost none of them are "full-tang". For a sword to be truly full tang, the tang needs to extend all the way through the pommel, one way or another, in my opinion at least. Heck, even the one Peter Lyons made for the movies, the pommel was literally just glued on, so wouldn't really be considered "full tang". One of the best ones out there is the Darksword Armoury version, and while the pommel IS allegedly peened on somehow, rather than threaded or glued, even it is still not full tang. I have only seen one full tang Anduril, and it was done for that "Reforged" show. They made it full tang by cutting the pommel part of the tang out to almost exactly match the profile of the pommel. (So the blade itself has the cut out in it to match the pommel.) They then sandwiched it between two pieces of steel and welded it all together. A TRUE full PROFILE tang. So, could this one have a tang that extends all the way to the pommel, but then is just threaded on? Possibly. Would that be a full tang though anyway? Ehh.... I suppose some may consider it that. I don't consider it full tang unless I can see the tang out the end of the pommel. But more likely than not, it is a rattail tang welded onto the blade, then threaded onto the pommel. I hear you though, if you don't HAVE to know, and it holds up enough to some basic swinging, just leave it be and don't risk breaking it to solve the mystery. As others have suggested. Beautiful sword, no matter how real it is! This is a great point, the whole design of Narsil/Anduril (I realise at this point that I may have an Anduril replica rather than a Narsil one, I'll be sure to hand in my nerd card on the way out for this henious crime against pop culture) involves some pretty odd stuff with the pommel. The only thing that's making me think this one isn't a rat-tail is the magnet test. As I mentioned in the original post, I have a pretty small and not that powerful neodynium magnet that I used to test the tang. It sticks to the handle, half-way up the zinc alloy section of the pommel/half handle bit. My suspicion is that if it was a rat-tail, it wouldn't have enough power to connect through the mass of the non magnetic metal/the wood and leather sectons. I tested the magnet against my finger, and it can't connect through that - my fingers aren't very thick, fwiw. Hell, it loses noticable power sticking to the blade through the scabbard, which itself is pretty thin. Given the thick and dense nature of the zinc alloy fittings and the wood/PU leather handle scales, I figure a rat-tail wouldn't be close enough to the surface to attract the magnet. Maybe I'm just reaching here, but that's my suspicion. It is a very beautiful replica, far nicer than its price-tag led me to believe. I watched some videos on the United Cutlery official models they released and honestly the only bit that doesn't seem to match up visually on mine is the etching. The engravings on this one seem to be laser-cut and aren't as pristine or stylish as the ones on the UC originals. Beyond that it's a very convincing copy. |
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Post by Paul Muad’Dib on Jun 27, 2022 15:27:49 GMT
Could be a half tang then a rat tail welded on that. Would explain the magnet. I’ve seen a diagram of that but can’t remember exactly where that is.
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Veerdin
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Post by Veerdin on Jul 1, 2022 9:57:47 GMT
Could be a half tang then a rat tail welded on that. Would explain the magnet. I’ve seen a diagram of that but can’t remember exactly where that is. I think I've seen that same diagram, and that does sound very likely, would make sense for a sword like this. |
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Post by roth on Jul 12, 2022 2:23:46 GMT
I love my United Cutlery version of this sword.
In the end, all that matters is if you love it or not. If you do, it was a bargain. If you don't, you got a bad deal and only have yourself to blame. Flipping through your posts here, it sounds like you got a bargain that you will treasure for a long time.
I admit I was a bit disappointed when I found out my UC stainless steel Anduril wasn't a "real sword". Then I made some adjustments in my attitude and now I love it as much as I did on the day it arrived.
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Veerdin
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Post by Veerdin on Jul 12, 2022 19:25:19 GMT
I love my United Cutlery version of this sword. In the end, all that matters is if you love it or not. If you do, it was a bargain. If you don't, you got a bad deal and only have yourself to blame. Flipping through your posts here, it sounds like you got a bargain that you will treasure for a long time. I admit I was a bit disappointed when I found out my UC stainless steel Anduril wasn't a "real sword". Then I made some adjustments in my attitude and now I love it as much as I did on the day it arrived. As a long-time sword nerd I was under no illusions about the quality of con-tier wallhangers, which is why I've mentioned my surprise at the visual quality of this particular peice. My husband doesn't share my sentiment (he maintains I should have gotten an Arbiter Plasma Sword instead, since it looks cooler) as he's thankfully not a sword nerd like me, but personally I adore this thing. I suspect the construction is the half rat-tail system, which means it's likely sturdy enough for me to swing around whenever my inner child rears his ugly ginger head (which is often) so I think your assertation is correct. I will likely enjoy owning this "sword" for a long time and considering that I bought it on sale to begin with I'm more than happy to say I got a bargain on this particular transaction. |
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