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Post by randomnobody on Jun 19, 2022 12:57:37 GMT
I wanted to share more of my recently-acquired Moro kris, aka kalis Mindanao/Sundang, etc, which I picked up from Alan S Cook via eBay, because I'm rather enamored with it. First, a small batch of photos:     Pictured here with some other favorites, coincidentally all the same size. Seems I'm quite fond of give-or-take 24" blades.  Basic specs: Weight 2lbs 8.7oz / 1153g in scabbard 1lbs 15.8oz / 901g sword alone
Following units are "Inches" / "Centimeters" and are approximate for simplicity. I used a plastic, analog caliper for the smaller measurements and a Metric/SAE measuring tape for the larger.
Length 29 1/4 / 74.5 OAL in scabbard 28 3/4 / 73 OAL sans scabbard 23 3/4 / 63 blade 5 / 12.7 grip
Width 4 3/4 / 12 ganja/guard 2 1/4 / 5.8 narrowest point of base 1.4 / 3.5 before forming tip
Thickness 1/2 / 1.3 base 1/8 / 0.3 tip
PoB
5 1/2 / 14 from grip ferrule
My initial impressions of this sword were, "This is heavy!" and yeah, just under 2lbs for a ~24" blade is quite a lot. It's exceptionally thick at the base and very wide throughout, so of course this contributes. I can't decide if the distal taper is significant or not, given the length. I think probably pretty significant.
Despite what seems heavy at first, the ergonomics of this sword are phenomenal. The grip size is a nearly perfect fit for my hand, and the shape really locks it in, giving a sense of security to every swing. I'm not sure what type of cord the handle is wrapped in, but it's not overly aggressive and helps retain grip very well. Not sure what kind of wood it is, but there's a small crack in one side that doesn't seem to be growing. I'll keep an eye on it and seal it if need be, assuming I can find a traditional/acceptable method to do so.
It appears the blade features an inlaid edge; I'm not sure how well it shows in the photos, but in person the lines are quite clear. No real grain pattern is immediately visible to the naked eye, but under a small microscope with some light I think I can see some. I'm not sure how restoration is perceived among collectors in this niche; I know the Indonesian counterparts are frequently cleaned and etched to restore the original "pamor" but I will be leaving this one as-is for the time being. I don't mind the light gray patina, and the black/brown rust spots are small enough and don't seem to be hurting it too badly right now, so it should be fine for a bit. It was described as 19th century, putting it over 100 years old so some age is expected. I'll make sure it doesn't decay any faster and leave it at that.
As it is right now, the edge is still quite sharp. It's no razor, and I can pick it up and move it around by gripping the edges, but if it starts to slip I'm using the other hand to grab the handle.
As someone who wasn't really interested in these just a few months ago, I'm becoming very fond of them now. I can't afford to rapidly grow a collection, but I'll probably pick up a few more when I'm able. I mostly prefer the half-wave, half-straight style to those that are fully one or the other, but I can see myself with at least one of each, someday.
Anyway, I wanted to share in the hopes other folk here might appreciate these, too. I know Timo has a few, at least.
I'd like to have a modern version, but as it stands only TFW and BCI seem to make any, with TFW's Kris 5 being the closest match, but the blade geometry is way off. I've read, somewhere, of current Filipino smiths making these, so I might look into that at some point. Edit: I forgot to mention, the scabbard fit on this is tight. I remember reading a review here of one of TFW's offerings that says the scabbard fit was very loose. That one had the other scabbard style, with cutouts that leave the ganja exposed, whereas this one has extensions to accommodate it. Could be a difference in the two styles. |
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 19, 2022 13:43:32 GMT
Thanks so much for sharing. I can see why you are attracted to it. I have no way of telling if the wood cracks are from natural aging or climate change, it could be both. I would suggest applying oil as soon as possible. A dedicated wood oil would be best but in a pinch common old mineral oil will work until something better comes along.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 19, 2022 15:04:22 GMT
Thanks so much for sharing. I can see why you are attracted to it. I have no way of telling if the wood cracks are from natural aging or climate change, it could be both. I would suggest applying oil as soon as possible. A dedicated wood oil would be best but in a pinch common old mineral oil will work until something better comes along. Good call. I meant to grab some yesterday, but it slipped my mind. Going out of town for two weeks and leaving in an hour or two, so I'm hoping nothing disastrous befalls it before I get back. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2022 19:41:46 GMT
Damn that's wicked, be careful, it might have the spirit of its owner in it 😉
Wait, that is what the superstition is right
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Post by paulmuaddib on Jun 19, 2022 20:20:42 GMT
Like you these never interested me. I like the scabbards and handles but don’t really care for wavy blades. This is the first half and half blade I’ve seen. It looks pretty good. And this one looks like a good example of these type of swords/big knives. Very nice looking in fact. Be sure to post pics of others you get. Btw, I got into katana first but after getting a few wakizashi I kind of like them a little better. So I can totally relate to the 24 inch blade thing. Nice acquisition.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 19, 2022 20:54:16 GMT
Like you these never interested me. I like the scabbards and handles but don’t really care for wavy blades. This is the first half and half blade I’ve seen. It looks pretty good. And this one looks like a good example of these type of swords/big knives. Very nice looking in fact. Be sure to post pics of others you get. Btw, I got into katana first but after getting a few wakizashi I kind of like them a little better. So I can totally relate to the 24 inch blade thing. Nice acquisition. Katana were my first love. I had a brief affair with European stuff, but thought I found true love with Indo-Persian arms. These days I'm seeing a broader range of "ethnographic" types and I'm appreciating different ideas of "beauty" and "function" through them. Always something new to learn. |
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Post by paulmuaddib on Jun 20, 2022 1:28:56 GMT
Like you these never interested me. I like the scabbards and handles but don’t really care for wavy blades. This is the first half and half blade I’ve seen. It looks pretty good. And this one looks like a good example of these type of swords/big knives. Very nice looking in fact. Be sure to post pics of others you get. Btw, I got into katana first but after getting a few wakizashi I kind of like them a little better. So I can totally relate to the 24 inch blade thing. Nice acquisition. Katana were my first love. I had a brief affair with European stuff, but thought I found true love with Indo-Persian arms. These days I'm seeing a broader range of "ethnographic" types and I'm appreciating different ideas of "beauty" and "function" through them. Always something new to learn. Agree 100% |
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 14, 2022 19:25:21 GMT
I said I wouldn't do it, but I couldn't not, so I picked up another one. This time a 22" wavy model. Initial impressions are, it certainly looks smaller, but it feels no less substantial. I did weigh it, and it comes in at 2oz/56g lighter than the other, which is surprising given that it's shorter by 2". I'll get more measurements at some point and see what else compares. Handle is just as solid and feels great in my hand. Might even be better than the first. Just a few pics for now; I didn't have time to do much else. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2022 20:53:18 GMT
How do they feel in the hand? I always imagine them as heavy stiff blades, for their size. You gonna try cut anything?
Maybe you can duel wield them 😎
Either way, deadly purchase. I envy your new swords.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 14, 2022 21:14:04 GMT
How do they feel in the hand? I always imagine them as heavy stiff blades, for their size. You gonna try cut anything? Maybe you can duel wield them 😎 Either way, deadly purchase. I envy your new swords. They're wrist-breakers, but they move well enough. Both are still plenty sharp, but I don't think I'll be cutting anything with them any time soon. At their length, as thick as they are, there's probably not a lot of flex to them, but I haven't tried yet. Forgot to mention: While the scabbard fit of the first one is super tight, this one is less-so. It's snug enough that it's not falling off, but if you flip it over, the sword will fall out. It seems the two halves have grown apart, whether by age, climate change, or some other factor. If I hold the scabbard mouth snugly, the blade is retained well when inverted, but I have to figure out how to coax the two scabbard-halves back together. Easy answer is glue, but I get the feeling glue wasn't used on them to begin with... |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2022 21:35:53 GMT
How do they feel in the hand? I always imagine them as heavy stiff blades, for their size. You gonna try cut anything? Maybe you can duel wield them 😎 Either way, deadly purchase. I envy your new swords. They're wrist-breakers, but they move well enough. Both are still plenty sharp, but I don't think I'll be cutting anything with them any time soon. At their length, as thick as they are, there's probably not a lot of flex to them, but I haven't tried yet. Forgot to mention: While the scabbard fit of the first one is super tight, this one is less-so. It's snug enough that it's not falling off, but if you flip it over, the sword will fall out. It seems the two halves have grown apart, whether by age, climate change, or some other factor. If I hold the scabbard mouth snugly, the blade is retained well when inverted, but I have to figure out how to coax the two scabbard-halves back together. Easy answer is glue, but I get the feeling glue wasn't used on them to begin with... If you enjoy that type of sword, you would have loved Danu haha. And they came apart? That's usually my go to to fix sword scabbards too I also like gluing and sanding down shims on my scabbard mouth, seems to do a decent enough job, if you end up needing further snugness What these run you? |
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 14, 2022 22:00:24 GMT
If you enjoy that type of sword, you would have loved Danu haha. My love for khybers and now these seems to suggest I like the short-and-heavy stuffs. Bonus points for wide, I guess. On that note, I just checked my notes for the weight of my heaviest khyber, and it's still lighter than either of these. That's surprising. It looks like the two halves are held together by the rattan wrapping. My two flyssa scabbards are only together thanks to three metal bands around each, so it's not like it's unheard-of. It seems the problem is either part of the rattan is missing, at the top of the scabbard, or there was once another band around it, holding the halves together. If I had to guess, the absence of anything here has allowed the two halves to drift apart, leaving extra room where the blade sits, making it not as tight anymore. If I can find something appropriate to wrap it with, I might. One of my Khyber's scabbards shed part of its leather wrap at one point, I guess it was glued rather than sewn on (some sort of natural resin?). I currently have it tied on with some bright green nylon cord, that I got with a tarp many years ago. Don't think I'm gonna use the same cord for the new sword, though... What these run you? [/quote] |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2022 23:26:48 GMT
If you enjoy that type of sword, you would have loved Danu haha. My love for khybers and now these seems to suggest I like the short-and-heavy stuffs. Bonus points for wide, I guess. On that note, I just checked my notes for the weight of my heaviest khyber, and it's still lighter than either of these. That's surprising. It looks like the two halves are held together by the rattan wrapping. My two flyssa scabbards are only together thanks to three metal bands around each, so it's not like it's unheard-of. It seems the problem is either part of the rattan is missing, at the top of the scabbard, or there was once another band around it, holding the halves together. If I had to guess, the absence of anything here has allowed the two halves to drift apart, leaving extra room where the blade sits, making it not as tight anymore. If I can find something appropriate to wrap it with, I might. One of my Khyber's scabbards shed part of its leather wrap at one point, I guess it was glued rather than sewn on (some sort of natural resin?). I currently have it tied on with some bright green nylon cord, that I got with a tarp many years ago. Don't think I'm gonna use the same cord for the new sword, though... What these run you? [/quote] I wonder how it would alter the value to use a modern glue, or even a pine pitch glue? Pine pitch is pretty standard in many cultures, so it might not be so much of a travesty to future collectors. Of course, I would just use epoxy lol. Plentiful, reliable, and everything one could want in an adhesive |
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 15, 2022 0:22:02 GMT
I wonder how it would alter the value to use a modern glue, or even a pine pitch glue? Pine pitch is pretty standard in many cultures, so it might not be so much of a travesty to future collectors. Of course, I would just use epoxy lol. Plentiful, reliable, and everything one could want in an adhesive I imagine it depends on whether the original culture used anything. I'm also contemplating trying to polish up one or both of them, to see the patterns etc, but I'm not sure how that would be accepted among the collector community, either. |
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 16, 2022 16:22:21 GMT
To, hopefully, better illustrate what I've said about the gaps at the scabbard mouth, here's a photo of either side:   Very slight gaps, but just enough, I suppose, to cause problems. On the first one I bought, the top portion of the scabbard is wrapped with some kind of fabric. I assume silk, but I don't know. I've seen several others, online, with metal bands in the same area. This one has nothing, which leads me to believe whatever was there has gone missing. If I pinch this part of the scabbard together, the sword holds firmly. I'm just not sure how to replace it. Oh, and because I haven't taken one yet, here's a quick photo of the two together:  Edit - Without scabbards |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2022 21:56:47 GMT
Yea I'm willing to be you are in the money with that. Maybe even the carved channels were what has swelled up, unevenly, causing these gaps. If you pulled em apart I bet you could sand em flat again
Of course I would rather just fill it with wood glue... Or maybe even just leave it I guess. Make a secondary scabbard that retains it better
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 16, 2022 22:23:36 GMT
Probably just gonna leave it alone for now. Doesn't have to be perfect, it's an antique; it's allowed to have some blemishes.
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 17, 2022 9:14:35 GMT
Specs on #2, same format as before: Weight 2lbs 4.7oz / 1,040g 1lbs 13.8oz / 844g Length 29 3/4 / 74.5 27 3/4 / 70.5 22 1/2 / 57 5 1/4 / 13.5 Width 4 1/2 / 13.5 2 / 5 1.4 / 3.5 Thickness 0.43 / 1 0.15 / 0.4 PoB 6 1/2 / 16.5 One is just over an inch shorter than the other, and very slightly thinner at the base, but with less taper, leaving the weights comparable but giving the smaller model a more blade-heavy feel. I've neglected to measure grip thickness, but the first one I bought feels marginally thicker than the second. Both are made of wood and wrapped in some kind of cord. My first acquisition features a more gentle transition from the narrower end at the "guard" (I'm not sure which of the native words I should be using here; I have a chart, somewhere, that offers three different languages from different parts of the island(s) so I'll just call it the closest English word) to the larger "pommel" end while the second is visibly "canted" into the pommel. Both grips are very comfortable, and when choked up against the "guard" I can get a good feel for where the point is and how to manipulate it. These swords generally have a slight forward curve to the whole length, which does make indexing the tip a little awkward, but one adjusts easily enough. I might like these more than the khybers...but don't tell them.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2022 19:38:12 GMT
What is the biggest difference in handling characteristics between khybers and these swords? You try out some Kali double sword flourishes with them yet? Hahaha I know I would be tempted
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Post by randomnobody on Jul 17, 2022 20:44:29 GMT
What is the biggest difference in handling characteristics between khybers and these swords? Hmm, tough to say. I have five of one and only two of the other, each with their own handling characteristics, but to generalize, I think it comes down to grip shape. All but one of my khybers have very straight, pretty thin (give or take 1") grips that are slightly longer than the more conical, curved/canted grips on the kalis. I think the feeling of having "more" in the hand, and the shape providing a more "locked-in" feeling, gives a greater sense of security to swinging the kalis vs the khybers, but apart from that, they're pretty similar. Probably also helps the kalis that they're wrapped in braided cord, whereas the only khyber I have with any texture is just ribbed horn. All the rest are smooth horn or bone grips, which can feel kinda slippery after a bit. I don't know any Kali and will not pretend I do, so no, lol. I especially don't trust myself to dual-wield anything, so only one at a time for me. |
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