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Post by zagos on Feb 4, 2022 20:25:18 GMT
Hello gentlemen (and ladies). I would greatly appreciate help identifying an unhilted and allegedly antique sabre blade I've purchased. It looks like the geometry may have been meddled with but there is a maker's mark. Pictures to be posted after work.
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Post by zagos on Feb 4, 2022 20:32:13 GMT
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Post by zagos on Feb 4, 2022 21:25:31 GMT
Here are the only marks. Attachments:
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 5, 2022 5:45:02 GMT
To me it looks like a French M1822 LC blade that was straightened in around 1882 in the hunt for a new Cavalry blade design. There should be a text engraving on the spine to confirm this. Anyway the stamps point to the 1882 time frame.
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Post by zagos on Feb 5, 2022 6:20:29 GMT
Thank you Uhlan. Very interesting.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 6, 2022 10:25:00 GMT
If it is what I think it is, be very careful with it. For one, these do not come in bushels, meaning they can be quite hard to find and furthermore the whole process of forging these old sabre blades to straight backswords did have an impact on the tempering. Some came through the torture in good shape, but many were reduced to pool noodles. Really very easy to bend and worthless as a functioning blade. The many ..noodles'' that came out at the other end made the entire project be called off. Other, stiff, blades broke at the ricasso, as the metal at the shoulder was getting too hard. On the whole the idea was good, it could have used the gigantic amount of (surplus) M1822 LC sabre blades, thus saving serious money, but the state of metallurgy was not advanced enough at that time to really have control of the process and make it work.
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Post by zagos on Feb 7, 2022 21:52:40 GMT
That's fascinating and explains why I can't seem to find another example with the very slight curve where the fullers extend to the same point of the blade. My origina idea was to make a new hilt and gently clean up the blade a bit. However if it's as rare as you say (given you're correct about what it may be), do you think the historical value is such that I should just leave it be? When (if) the thing arrives I'll update with better pictures.
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Post by zagos on Feb 7, 2022 21:55:25 GMT
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 8, 2022 6:02:54 GMT
It's not that you have hit the jackpot. These are quite rare, but not extremely so. This is reflected in the price, but it's not like you have hit the golden jackpot. Collectors may find these blades interesting to a degree. It is some kind of gray area. The reason I made the above comment is that you should be careful in handling it. Some are easy to bend, some are easy to brake. Some perform like they should. I have one that is so soft it is ridiculous. Takes a set just like that. I'll bet it will take a set just by leaving it standing too long with its tip on the ground. Of course. If you want to mount it please do so. Clean it up whatever way you want. Your blade. Have all the fun with it you can get out of it. Get that black of the tip, find some nice hilt and grip, maybe even make a scabbard for it. As part of a nice looking package the blade will survive longer that many an unmounted stray. I have seen stray blades, rusty and bunched up, with some wire keeping them together like bushels of wheat, standing in umbrella stands, waiting for someone to buy one of them and nobody ever even looking at them. A sorry sight indeed. Like all those lonely doggies in the municipal dog shelter. It looks like yours is shortened somewhat. I'd say about 2". Looks like a pro job, so do not fret. Have fun and show us the results of your work if you want. If you have questions along the way please post them.
Cheers.
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Post by zagos on Feb 8, 2022 6:53:02 GMT
I see. In that case I will definitely have fun with it when it arrives. It's an interesting piece and my first sword. You have my thanks for all the information.
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Post by maxdchouinard on Feb 15, 2022 15:39:00 GMT
Hello Zagos,
What's the length of the blade?
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Post by zagos on Feb 17, 2022 4:46:00 GMT
Hello Gentlemen. The blade has arrived! The blade is about 29.5 inches (75cm). Total length is about 35 inches (89cm). I also have some pictures of information on the spine which will follow this reply. And you were are correct Uhlan, the blade is extremely soft. It was slightly bent and I straightened it with barely any force.
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Post by zagos on Feb 17, 2022 6:05:29 GMT
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 17, 2022 7:39:34 GMT
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Post by maxdchouinard on Feb 17, 2022 16:44:07 GMT
So at 75cm, I think what you have would be a cut down officer 1822-1899, possibly to make it fit in an infantry sabre. It looks like someone went to town on the edge, which might explain why it is so bendy as it messed up the temper. The poinçons are those of Coulaux, the C and B with star (not to mix up with the crowned ones) appear around 1882 according to the historical association's website: www.klingenthal.fr/marquages_coulaux.htmAs for Balp, it is a fourbisseur that is still active today. They started in 1830 as Balp et fils, and were mostly in the business of selling guns, but they also sold swords, mostly from Coulaux or Chatellerault, and produced some great catalogs that are very useful ressources. Since they were based in St-Etienne, they are sometimes confused with the manufacture but were not related.
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Post by zagos on Feb 18, 2022 0:44:42 GMT
Well thank you both very much for the information. I notice the curvature is quite crudely inconsistent if one looks down the length of the blade. In your opinions, would it be distasteful for me to attempt to re-temper the blade?
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Post by maxdchouinard on Feb 18, 2022 3:10:19 GMT
I wouldn't say so, no. This blade was broken, and intensively reshaped. It's also of little historical value, so whatever you want to do with it I think is fine.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 18, 2022 14:10:53 GMT
For the temper to be influenced in any way, one has to heat up the blade to at around 1150 to 1250 C. That's glowing red hot. Cannot be done with some edge work on a blade of a sabre. Not even a knife. The edge of the blade (sabre and knife), the thin part, would have burned off way before that temperature would be reached. For blue and gild the temperature should be around 350 to 375 C. Does not influence the temper one bit but again too high to reach with simple edge re-tooling. Only locally which would again result in burned material at the edge. By the looks of it, the person who did the work was well aware of this. So I think the blade had a bad temper before the cutting and edge work even started. Also, by your logic, a good amount of the sabre blades prepared for battle and later dulled again, would have their temper influenced to some degree. I do not think that was the case.
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Post by zagos on Feb 19, 2022 0:30:33 GMT
In your experience Uhlan, is an inconsistent rather crude curvature common with the 1822 sabres that were straightened?
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on Feb 19, 2022 9:56:33 GMT
No, I don't think so. The one I have and the few I have seen are straight. Just the temper is hit or miss. Shoddy lines would require a custom, thus expensive, scabbard for each blade, thus undermining the entire purpose of the effort. I have no idea what happened with your blade. I have been mulling over the St. Etienne BALP ,,stamp'' these last few days too. According to l'Hoste they are not in his list of BALP stamps. Looking at them I came to the conclusion they may be spurious. Like punched in letter by letter with the St. Etienne ,,stamp'' and made up of assorted straight punches in the BALP one. Not very ,,industrial'' or professional looking. The BALP St. Etienne stamps I have seen look much more polished, like one would expect, as these ,,brand'' stamps are an advertisement for the manufacturer. I could be wrong though. It's just what goes through my mind when looking at them. Also do not have the faintest idea of why somebody would make the effort of doing this. I do not see the money angle here, money being the number one motivator behind efforts like this. I hope you can do something useful with it. Could turn it into a spadroon. I have two Solingen wet spaghetty spadroon blades that were mounted and sold at the time to some poor sods and then to me (ouch!), so you are not alone. Or an 18th C. style hunting sword or as you suggested, try to get the temper right, which could be a useful learning experience in itself, regardless of the outcome. Anyway, get all the fun out of it you can. Cheers.
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