George
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Post by George on Nov 14, 2021 14:55:55 GMT
Hi all, it's been nearly ten years since I last graced this forum. 2021 saw me getting back into swords again after a long time with 0 swords and only a handful of knives. Boy has my learning curve been rough this time around (kinda like it was last time, maybe I'm not any wiser).
I thought I was wiser this time around though?... Anyway, I recently purchased a Bugei Old Pine (that I ended up sending back as the saya was cracked). Not only that, but the menuki were jammed in and split, the samegawa had tiny nodules on one side and huge ones on the other. On one side the samegawa was bubbling, like it wasn't stuck down properly. You could push it down and it would pop back up. You could see wood gaps between the wrap. The wrap was uneven, the tsuka was CHUNKY and the sword felt so heavy, like swinging a crowbar. Now this sword cost $1,600 USD not to mention I got it forwarded to Australia which cost $180 and then I had to send it back as the saya was cracked, which cost $250.
Fair game I thought, maybe this is the new "standard." So I went out and purchased a Hanwei Raptor, which was one of my fave swords back in the day. It was pretty good, but on dissasembly a big part of the nakago was all blued, like it had been heated up real hot with a blowtorch? It also clicked in the tsuka once I put it back together, and the tsuka wood looked like it was made of old rotten wood scraps from out the back of your grandpa's garage.
Screw it, I purchased a Citadel Lotus (and the a few other Citadel blades as I was just so impressed). Oh man! What a difference! Why bother with Bugei when the lotus only cost $500 more (but easily way more than that in workmanship)
I also got a Musashi Bamboo 1060 DT as even though it was cheap, it was one of my favorite swords back then. Still amazing today mind you! Apart from the zinc alloy F&K (they used to be iron, now they're alloy and don't look nearly as nice) it's just as good as before and I personally prefer it to the Raptor (I appreciate lighter "feeling" katana) which cost 3x as much.
So what is the go with Hanwei? They used to be my fave forge... Now they just don't seem worth what you pay. They seem rushed and overpriced. Am I just unlucky with these two? I know you would always roll the dice with Hanwei, but the odds seemed to be heaps more in your favor back then...
Oh an it's nice to be connecting with you all again!
*FYI for those who don't know, Bugei is now owned and operated by Cas Iberia (Hanwei).
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Post by randomnobody on Nov 14, 2021 15:12:35 GMT
A lot has happened in ten years. Whole brands have come and gone. A majority of sword-buying has shifted from the old, established brands like Hanwei to the latest eBay vendor to offer decent-looking stuff, and the magic word: "custom"
I can't remember how long ago it was, probably not ten years yet, but Hanwei had a fire that took out a large part of their business. They struggled to get running again, and just haven't been the same since.
As far as I'm aware, Bugei has always used the same forge as Hanwei, so they've always been related.
For a while, the hot budget brand was Munetoshi, from Sword N Armory, but one doesn't hear much about them now. In the eBay world, Huawei (not to be confused with Hanwei) enjoyed popularity for a while before slowly falling out of favor. Same for a handful of other vendors.
Ultimately, though, the biggest blow to the Chinese sword industry came last year courtesy of COVID-19. Shutdowns and order restrictions have made it very difficult to meet production goals, much less demand, and quality took a hit across the board.
Citadel katana have never appealed to me, aesthetically, and have always been well outside my budget, but they have always been given stellar reviews by the people who have them or have been able to handle them. My only experience with Citadel is one knife I bought, years ago, and it was a fantastic knife. I still have it, but it's not in my rotation anymore because, frankly, it was uncomfortable to wear.
I'm struggling to think of any manufacturers that are currently both in favor and meeting demand, but katana haven't really been "my thing" in a few years now.
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tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,337
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Post by tera on Nov 14, 2021 16:35:35 GMT
Not to excuse Hanwei, as I regard my ancient Hanwei iaito as the best made sword I own so may have a bias, but right now we are in what I call the "swordpocalypse".
With the pandemic hitting, several Chinese forges have closed or started producing lower quality steel. "Customizers" and vendors from those suppliers still have a hard time keeping anything in stock despite the QC issues. This doesn't apply to every company, but it has been noticed by some of us. Then there are situations like Cheness Cutlery, who have announced they will be producing no new product due to the lockdowns and Covid so rhey are selling off remaining stock and when it's gone, it's gone. A same, as they had a strong reputation for their TH 9260 blades.
I recently bought a Munetoshi used from a forum member here, and am glad I did. First, the forum member was able to send me lots of detailed pictures of the exact sword I was buying instead of having to take a gamble on a vendor just pulling a box off the shelf. It was a great comfort to get to "pre-inspect" in that way. There was that, and also the fact that the model I was interested in has not shown "in stock" by the vendor since June. For all I know I bought one of the last runs. I've noticed in the pasr few weeks our Classifieds section seems to be the busiest part of the forum. Some items are either hard to find right now or better trusted from a fellow member than lick-of-the-draw from certain vendors.
Huawei has continued to have a reputation of putting out quality product, but they are still swamped and wait times for anything not "in stock" can be months to a year. I am interested in a Huawei but am waiting for the world to settle down a bit and for them to get more models comfortably "in stock".
There has also been global political drama I won't detail here that has resulted in periods where Chinese vendors were having difficulty with customs as they tried to ship swords out of the country. It sounds like that is going more smoothly, but it was a pain for many folks who bought "in stock" items only to wait weeks longer than expected for delivery. Sometimes customs would just bounce the package back to the vendor, leaving them unsure how to proceed.
So, the long and short of it is these past couple of years have been odd in the sword hobby. There seems to be a growing interest in the hobby but a choked supply. Quality control from the more entry level brands has been more erratic. I wouldn't regard Bugei or Hanwei as entry level, except maybe for the Raptor series (usually of great repute) so I am surprised and saddened to hear of your poor experiences with them.
Let's all try to ride this out together. I'm sure the situation will improve in time.
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Post by Roscoe57 on Nov 14, 2021 16:37:44 GMT
It was pretty good, but on dissasembly a big part of the nakago was all blued, like it had been heated up real hot with a blowtorch? It also clicked in the tsuka once I put it back together, and the tsuka wood looked like it was made of old rotten wood scraps from out the back of your grandpa's garage. I have a Dragon King with the same. Mid section of the nakago was heated for some reson. You can tell it was heated up. |
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Post by Roscoe57 on Nov 14, 2021 16:49:27 GMT
Recently bought a Hanwei Raptor Katana, Shinogi Zukuri. No problems at all, even has a decent sized samegawa. Also bought a Hanwei Practical Plus Elite, now this one has a rather beat up tsuka core, but only on the fuchi end. About a 1/4 inch. CAS Hanwei said the norm would to be replace the entire katana, though they have none it stock. I glued the fuchi in place after I patched the missing wood. Been cutting mats with it, no issues.
Looks like Hanwei could use some better QC.
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Post by throwaway209 on Nov 14, 2021 17:16:18 GMT
This is why I just can't be bothered to commit to an expensive hanwei purchase. That's way too much money to have it be a total crap shoot. This is why I stopped buying from kult of athena for certain stuff, you just have no idea which sword they're grabbing for you.
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Post by Robert in California on Nov 14, 2021 18:09:27 GMT
Seems like everyone has slowed.
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Post by nddave on Nov 14, 2021 18:18:33 GMT
Yea I think a big thing is lemons in general. If you do a assumed or estimated ratio let's say a manufacturer like Hanwei makes 10 swords of a specific model and due to production flaws 1-2 out of those 10 are lemons or have defects such as poor heat treatment, fit and finish issues or general sloppy assembly.
In the real world when people tend to be content they don't have much to say. For example if you get a good sword and you're not into sharing on social media or do sword reviews you become sort of a silent majority because you're happy or content. But the other side of the coin is when we aren't content or are unhappy with something by nature we tend to be more vocal towards what we're unhappy with. So then we get sort of the loud minority sharing their malcontent and or dissatisfaction.
So when we get on the internet like here on the forum or wherever like Youtube, Facebook etc, the ratio changes because now we have more negative reviews or opinions as opposed to positive reviews or opinions due to the nature of sharing negatives over positives.
So out of the thousands to hundreds of swords these manufacturers put out we're only hearing about more of flawed swords and even less of the good swords so the ratio is skewed to the negative.
For example with your Musashi, if you're Musashi was in fact a flawed sword would you be so adamant to praise the manufacturer? In retrospect how many Musashi have you actually purchased? If it's only the one do you have a clear ratio to base your opinion on the manufacturer as a whole?
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Post by throwaway209 on Nov 14, 2021 20:14:45 GMT
What would be a gamechanger for me is if Hanwei could somehow fix their notorious saya rattle, at least with their expensive stuff. That's what scares me away the most, and after that it's probably the loose and jarring ito that is known to plague hanwei. I don't know why but saya rattle off the get go really kills a lot of my excitement. I guess it takes away from the elegance of the rest of Hanwei's work, and makes me feel like I have something much cheaper.
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Post by Arlequin on Nov 14, 2021 20:57:08 GMT
The sword landscape has indeed changed. The pandemic itself has brought allot of issues aswell, good product is hard to find and slow to come. Browse this forum long enough and you'll learn that quite allot of us have close to $1000 and upwards tied up in swords that are 6-months through a year backlogged, and for the most part we're kinda just hoping we didn't get e-robbed.
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Post by MichaelRS on Nov 14, 2021 21:04:40 GMT
Geez. I have 5 swords (3 Kat & 2 Wak) from Hanbon Forge and while there are deficiencies (HF is what it is after all), I don't think they add up to all that between them.
Sorry for your bad experience and resulting disappointment, but thanks for making me feel a little better. 😉 😄
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Post by Roscoe57 on Nov 14, 2021 21:41:49 GMT
For myself I will still buy Hanwei as problems are few and Hanwei does give you a 1 year warranty. If you look hard enough you can find a flaw in the even more expensive swords. You also need to think about resale value later on. I know for a fact the Chinese so called forges drop in value quick. Yes even Huawei. This being said, Huawei is the only one I would buy. Does one even know what you getting is steel? Think your buying T10? More than likely it is 1045 or if your lucky 1060. The following is a excellent write up: www.sword-buyers-guide.com/how-swords-are-made.htmlI am sticking with: Hanwei, Dragon King, Motohara, Ronin, Feilong, Huawei, along with a few others. All these have a excellent resale value and they move fairly quick. |
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addertooth
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Working the tsuka on two bare blades from Ninja-Katana, slow progress
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Post by addertooth on Nov 15, 2021 13:37:22 GMT
As an additional issue, prices have marched up notably on the better swords. I have recently started to teach my stepson sword use. He looked at one of my swords and asked how much it cost. I know what I had paid for it (about $560) a few years back. At that time it was the top tier of Hanbon swords (Gyaku Kobuse, Hazuya finish, Hishigami, Rayskin accents on Saya, Horn saya fittings, etc). I went to price it today, and it topped out a bit over $800 in the current context.
It would appear the buyers are being pinched in all dimensions of ownership.
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George
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Post by George on Nov 15, 2021 13:47:46 GMT
It was pretty good, but on dissasembly a big part of the nakago was all blued, like it had been heated up real hot with a blowtorch? It also clicked in the tsuka once I put it back together, and the tsuka wood looked like it was made of old rotten wood scraps from out the back of your grandpa's garage. I have a Dragon King with the same. Mid section of the nakago was heated for some reson. You can tell it was heated up. Yeah, strange right? |
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George
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Post by George on Nov 15, 2021 13:50:21 GMT
This is why I just can't be bothered to commit to an expensive hanwei purchase. That's way too much money to have it be a total crap shoot. This is why I stopped buying from kult of athena for certain stuff, you just have no idea which sword they're grabbing for you. I actually just had this issue I forgot to mention! I purchased a Hanwei Tonbo katana from KOA... After 2.5 weeks there was no updates, so I rang them. The very helpful guy on the phone said they had not sent it as they were "fixing" the saya for me. I didn't ask what was wrong, but just canceled the order. Strange right? |
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George
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Post by George on Nov 15, 2021 13:57:07 GMT
Yea I think a big thing is lemons in general. If you do a assumed or estimated ratio let's say a manufacturer like Hanwei makes 10 swords of a specific model and due to production flaws 1-2 out of those 10 are lemons or have defects such as poor heat treatment, fit and finish issues or general sloppy assembly. In the real world when people tend to be content they don't have much to say. For example if you get a good sword and you're not into sharing on social media or do sword reviews you become sort of a silent majority because you're happy or content. But the other side of the coin is when we aren't content or are unhappy with something by nature we tend to be more vocal towards what we're unhappy with. So then we get sort of the loud minority sharing their malcontent and or dissatisfaction. So when we get on the internet like here on the forum or wherever like Youtube, Facebook etc, the ratio changes because now we have more negative reviews or opinions as opposed to positive reviews or opinions due to the nature of sharing negatives over positives. So out of the thousands to hundreds of swords these manufacturers put out we're only hearing about more of flawed swords and even less of the good swords so the ratio is skewed to the negative. For example with your Musashi, if you're Musashi was in fact a flawed sword would you be so adamant to praise the manufacturer? In retrospect how many Musashi have you actually purchased? If it's only the one do you have a clear ratio to base your opinion on the manufacturer as a whole? Totally right! I'm not sure if you're in your own business or not, but everyone knows if you take 10 people and they all have a good experience at your establishment (or online shop or whatever) only roughly one of those ten will speak up and leave a good review. However, if those 10 people have a bad experience about 4 of them will speak up and tell their friends about the bad experience. We are wired this way for survival, when once Lions used to literally eat us. You need to tell your friends about that negative experience you had over there because it could mean they wont get eaten! I have had about 4 Musashi's and I think roughly (at a guess) 8 Hanwei blades. So you're probably right BUT I honestly think it's the price. For $140 I don't expect much, but for $500 + I start to get a lot more picky. Then for $1,600 Bugei, I expect near perfection. Shouldn't we all for that price? |
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George
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Post by George on Nov 15, 2021 14:03:02 GMT
I totally forgot about the pandemic affecting things! Lucky me hey? But still, unless forges are heaps more rushed now (which is very likely), the QC should still be there right?
I do remember the fire. It affected Bugei. The old pine used to be their special HS alloy steel (or whatever it was) but then they changed to powdered steel. Check the Hamon on the new old pine model compared to the beautiful "original" or older one (basically the same as the Hanwei bamboo mat). Very different!
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Post by RufusScorpius on Nov 15, 2021 15:01:16 GMT
I don't have any direct and factual answers as to why things are the way they are, but I have some ideas.
First of all, conversations like this have been discussed on this forum in varying degrees over the years, and it's healthy to revisit the topics from time to time with new members that have a fresh set of eyes. It's not a single cause, but a combination of many things- including customer perceptions.
Over the years customers have been exposed to increasing levels of quality from lower priced products due to changes in manufacturing technologies making everything easier and cheaper. Many things today are made quickly and cheaply on CNC machines or other automated processes which create a stable manufacturing system that can consistently turn out quality products. But that's not the case with swords.
For the most part, the swords we buy as hobbyists and sporting practitioners are cut to shape on a CNC machine, but all the rest of the construction process is done by hand. Literally done by a guy with a hammer and a bucket of hot coals. This method relies on the skill of the craftsman and by it's very nature will produce variations in the finished product. Now, the real question is if those variations are simply cosmetic, or if they affect the structural integrity or useability of the finished product. If the variations are simply cosmetic, then it comes down to whether or not the PERCEPTION of quality is in the sword according to the EXPECTATIONS of the customer. Obviously, a structural problem is a whole other matter.
Add on top of this supply and demand, legal issues with shipping and local laws, supply chain delays, etc. and you can see now where some of the problems are with respect to cost. But as with anything else, when you pay more, you expect more.
This is why the reputation of the vendor is more important than anything else when purchasing a sword. There is no way to know what king of steel you are actually getting vs. what was advertised outside of doing a lab test, as well as no way of being sure you will get a "quality" sword when you order it from a web site. However, hobbyists and practitioners will collectively stay that "X" brand makes a sword that holds up as expected, vs. "Y" brand which has a reputation for failure. This collective opinion comes from actual accounts of ownership and use over extended time periods. And keep in mind that you "can't please everybody", so even the best manufacturers will have a few bad reviews, but look at the overall perception of the vendor/manufacturer and dismiss the obvious sour grapes and fanboys and I think you will get a pretty honest view of what is really going on with a manufacturer.
No easy answers when it comes to "quality". Much of it is subjective.
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Post by throwaway209 on Nov 15, 2021 15:08:06 GMT
This is why I just can't be bothered to commit to an expensive hanwei purchase. That's way too much money to have it be a total crap shoot. This is why I stopped buying from kult of athena for certain stuff, you just have no idea which sword they're grabbing for you. I actually just had this issue I forgot to mention! I purchased a Hanwei Tonbo katana from KOA... After 2.5 weeks there was no updates, so I rang them. The very helpful guy on the phone said they had not sent it as they were "fixing" the saya for me. I didn't ask what was wrong, but just canceled the order. Strange right? That's strange but I'm happy they decided against sending you that. I will say they seem to be pretty lazy about letting you know what's going on lately. edit: only thing I can think of is the last one they had turned out to be blemished so they were banking on a resupply from hanwei. |
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AdamNovath
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"When the sword of rebellion is drawn, the sheath should be thrown away"- English proverb
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Post by AdamNovath on Feb 28, 2022 10:33:37 GMT
Hanwei qc has taken a nose dive through the years and that was before covid. No joke, I worked on a Hanwei raptor that was sent to me and the bottom mekugi was drilled half way off the nakago. The owner bought this sword in 2017 or 2018. Here's the video if you're interested. I've seen a number of Hanwei since that one and all of them have problems. Not worth the money anymore.
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