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Post by julio_corradi on Sept 21, 2021 23:54:40 GMT
I have seen many u.s. military swords marked made in japan already in the beginning of the 1950s.
I am curious how far back this went, and when did the u.s. actuiually stop being able to produce its own swords?
when was the last military swords produced in the u.s.a? (excluging those dutch cutlasses in ww2).
it seems already in the 1950s they were aquiring japanese made dress swords..
the reason i ask is ive seen several ww2 japanese swords with u.s. fittings.. that is US marked on the guard but not maker marked, so they took the casting and put a japanese style narrow sharp katana blade on the sword.. but the guard still says u.s. on it !! which would indicate they just took surplus castings of sword guard from the producer during the war (not a captured sword ect) and put their blade on it which would imply that already before ww2 atleast some of the u.s. military swords were already made in japan...?!
does anyone know if this is true? it seems very odd, bazaar even, but it looks like it could be the case??.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 0:06:38 GMT
Examples? There have been US regulation models made in Japan after WWII but they are few and far between. What you are describing really needs examples you can show to make any real determination. I think you are probably thinking of Japanese military and police swords that had European type hilts. No sharps with Japanese swords and US hilts ever existed (to my knowledge) and certainly not after WWII. www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htmWithout your posting examples, all we have is some thoughts. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 0:18:19 GMT
To expand on US production, we would be regarding the Springfield Armory and LF&C m1913 cavalry swords. Virtually all the US sword sales after WWI were/are imports. Even the Ames m1906 cavalry swords used German blades.
Cheers GC
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 22, 2021 0:45:13 GMT
US regulation swords were made in Japan both before and after WW II, just like they still are in Germany. Japan Sword and Miyazima come immediately to mind. I'm not sure when the Japanese companies quit, but probably when the weapons laws got tightened. I've seen some of these on eBay complete with typical US carrying cases, just like Vanguard, etc.
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Post by julio_corradi on Sept 22, 2021 2:05:59 GMT
Examples? There have been US regulation models made in Japan after WWII but they are few and far between. What you are describing really needs examples you can show to make any real determination. I think you are probably thinking of Japanese military and police swords that had European type hilts. No sharps with Japanese swords and US hilts ever existed (to my knowledge) and certainly not after WWII. www.japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htmWithout your posting examples, all we have is some thoughts. Cheers GC no im not thinking of "japanese swords with european fittings" u.s. officers purchased their swords form all over for a very long time.. and japan was one country they aquired them. there was several makers "japan sword" was one.. another is Miyazima . there is probably others. i have owned one marked Miyazima. quality was so so.. was marked made in japan so post occupation. No sharps with Japanese swords and US hilts ever existed (to my knowledge) and certainly not after WWII. yes they most definatly did,i have seen quite afew of these.. these are not common but i have seen more than afew... and to be honest the japs made a servicable sword form a toy.. sure its still not much fo a sword.. but it would actuially do what its meant to... www.blackswanantique.com/products/antique-us-ww1-japan-japanese-made-model-1852-navy-usn-katana-sword-w-scabbard
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Post by julio_corradi on Sept 22, 2021 2:20:04 GMT
US regulation swords were made in Japan both before and after WW II, just like they still are in Germany. Japan Sword and Miyazima come immediately to mind. I'm not sure when the Japanese companies quit, but probably when the weapons laws got tightened. I've seen some of these on eBay complete with typical US carrying cases, just like Vanguard, etc.
yes exactly.. there was very large numbers of these japanese made swords aquired and you can see them around in pawn shops and auctions.. first time i saw it is really surprised me. they are not a finely made sword but massproduced items for military buyers... american officers seem to have been motivative by price in buying them as they were much cheaper than the spanish swords and much much cheaper than anygerman products of the time.. it seems like india and maybe even chinese made swords filled the void for many military sword purchases when the japanese ones dissappeared.. i think the oldest ive seen is late 1970s, . sort of a grey area of the late 70s to the early 1990s in us dress sword suppliers where a proliferation of indian made swords began being purchased. but also in this time longquan suppliers began picturing us swords in catalogues.. (granted they were so bad quality you couldnt trust them to not melt in the sun) but the fact they picture these items means somebody tried to make them there and did sell them .. vast majority of us military swords today are indian made.. but at what point did the japanese rise as suppliers and why.. and at what point did they decline exactly. im also curious if there was attempts to pruchase swords in taiwan either by americna suppliers or by japanese makers or suppliers (aft.. which in turn creates the link to china. . i guess catalogues for military sword suppliers would give a better picture of it.. as thier pricing and range would tell the tale better. as to us sword production that too seems a grey area.. they assembled swords from parts they purchased and retailed them to officers.. but where were the parts made, england, spain, germany.. maybe even japan.. but when were the last u.s. made sword blades produced exactly is somethign im curious about.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2021 2:39:33 GMT
www.blackswanantique.com/products/antique-us-ww1-japan-japanese-made-model-1852-navy-usn-katana-sword-w-scabbardLooks like a composite to me but upon more looking, perhaps special orders. With the scabbard latch, it doesn't really fall into the norm of US use. My point about sharp blades goes to WWII and laws after that. Japan would not be making sharps after the war. US blade production as mentioned, two manufacturers of the m1913 cavalry sword. Literally tonnage of bayonets and knives right through the Vietnam War but sword production was whole swords and blades imported after WWI. Compared to other production, the Japanese swords do get mention but are rather obscure. If they are all lost in pawn shops, maybe the swords I look for are there for the taking (typically not) Cheers GC
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 22, 2021 3:28:47 GMT
www.blackswanantique.com/products/antique-us-ww1-japan-japanese-made-model-1852-navy-usn-katana-sword-w-scabbardLooks like a composite to me but upon more looking, perhaps special orders. With the scabbard latch, it doesn't really fall into the norm of US use. My point about sharp blades goes to WWII and laws after that. Japan would not be making sharps after the war. US blade production as mentioned, two manufacturers of the m1913 cavalry sword. Literally tonnage of bayonets and knives right through the Vietnam War but sword production was whole swords and blades imported after WWI. Compared to other production, the Japanese swords do get mention but are rather obscure. If they are all lost in pawn shops, maybe the swords I look for are there for the taking (typically not) Cheers GC Wow! I've just riffled through that site, and am thanking God that I've made out like a bandit, so far. There's an amazing amount of genuine, authentic, period CRAP loose on the market, and somehow, I haven't stumbled on any of it. That's a real blessing, but it makes me even more cautious. It's not just a jungle, but a junkyard out there. Be warned!
I'm starting to view eBay as a source of quality antique merchandise.
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Post by Lord Newport on Sept 22, 2021 3:50:42 GMT
My fathers US Naval officers sword, which passed to me for my naval service, was made by Japan Sword, purchased in 1956
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Post by julio_corradi on Sept 22, 2021 3:53:30 GMT
www.blackswanantique.com/products/antique-us-ww1-japan-japanese-made-model-1852-navy-usn-katana-sword-w-scabbardLooks like a composite to me but upon more looking, perhaps special orders. With the scabbard latch, it doesn't really fall into the norm of US use. My point about sharp blades goes to WWII and laws after that. Japan would not be making sharps after the war. US blade production as mentioned, two manufacturers of the m1913 cavalry sword. Literally tonnage of bayonets and knives right through the Vietnam War but sword production was whole swords and blades imported after WWI. Compared to other production, the Japanese swords do get mention but are rather obscure. If they are all lost in pawn shops, maybe the swords I look for are there for the taking (typically not) Cheers GC no its not for us use, its japanese.. they made these from us parts for swords they were producing for the americans prior to ww2... im not talking about americans using a japanese style blade on a sword sure that woudl be very odd... the japanese swords have a normal european blade in them.. this is a hybrid which as i ve said ive seen severla of them.. .. but tis mad efrom parts from before ww2.. that the japs had laying around and put proper little blade son tem
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Post by julio_corradi on Sept 22, 2021 3:57:24 GMT
www.blackswanantique.com/products/antique-us-ww1-japan-japanese-made-model-1852-navy-usn-katana-sword-w-scabbardLooks like a composite to me but upon more looking, perhaps special orders. With the scabbard latch, it doesn't really fall into the norm of US use. My point about sharp blades goes to WWII and laws after that. Japan would not be making sharps after the war. US blade production as mentioned, two manufacturers of the m1913 cavalry sword. Literally tonnage of bayonets and knives right through the Vietnam War but sword production was whole swords and blades imported after WWI. Compared to other production, the Japanese swords do get mention but are rather obscure. If they are all lost in pawn shops, maybe the swords I look for are there for the taking (typically not) Cheers GC Wow! I've just riffled through that site, and am thanking God that I've made out like a bandit, so far. There's an amazing amount of genuine, authentic, period CRAP loose on the market, and somehow, I haven't stumbled on any of it. That's a real blessing, but it makes me even more cautious. It's not just a jungle, but a junkyard out there. Be warned!
I'm starting to view eBay as a source of quality antique merchandise. haha yeah exactly.. lots of junk.. jsut because its old dosnt make it not junk... those Japanese swords ar epretty much cheap and valueless for collecitng ive picked up two for less than 100$ with a bag.. pawn shops are full of all sorts of such junk. its liek all the old spanish decorative swords that some are indeed 100 years but hardly worth 50$
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Post by julio_corradi on Sept 22, 2021 3:58:40 GMT
my quesiton is 1 what date was the first Japanese made us military swords sold.. if anyone has seen this in catalogues ect.. and
2 .. when was the last u.s. blade produced?
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 22, 2021 4:10:19 GMT
www.blackswanantique.com/products/antique-us-ww1-japan-japanese-made-model-1852-navy-usn-katana-sword-w-scabbardLooks like a composite to me but upon more looking, perhaps special orders. With the scabbard latch, it doesn't really fall into the norm of US use. My point about sharp blades goes to WWII and laws after that. Japan would not be making sharps after the war. US blade production as mentioned, two manufacturers of the m1913 cavalry sword. Literally tonnage of bayonets and knives right through the Vietnam War but sword production was whole swords and blades imported after WWI. Compared to other production, the Japanese swords do get mention but are rather obscure. If they are all lost in pawn shops, maybe the swords I look for are there for the taking (typically not) Cheers GC no its not for us use, its japanese.. they made these from us parts for swords they were producing for the americans prior to ww2... im not talking about americans using a japanese style blade on a sword sure that woudl be very odd... the japanese swords have a normal european blade in them.. this is a hybrid which as i ve said ive seen severla of them.. .. but tis mad efrom parts from before ww2.. that the japs had laying around and put proper little blade son tem I don't know, but it sounds like an "old collector's story" to me, like the one about Takayama swords being made in a prison (eventually that got debunked, they are named for a guy named Takayama) or the (only partially approved) second model Type 98's (also erroneously known as a Type 3) being "Landing Force Swords". Any time some sword mystery has appeared on the various forums, it's like a game of "gossip" erupts, that usually takes years of research in original sources to settle. Probably, something very odd happened around the end of the war, but a lot of very poorly recorded things did.
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Post by julio_corradi on Sept 22, 2021 4:36:59 GMT
no its not for us use, its japanese.. they made these from us parts for swords they were producing for the americans prior to ww2... im not talking about americans using a japanese style blade on a sword sure that woudl be very odd... the japanese swords have a normal european blade in them.. this is a hybrid which as i ve said ive seen severla of them.. .. but tis mad efrom parts from before ww2.. that the japs had laying around and put proper little blade son tem I don't know, but it sounds like an "old collector's story" to me, like the one about Takayama swords being made in a prison (eventually that got debunked, they are named for a guy named Takayama) or the (only partially approved) second model Type 98's (also erroneously known as a Type 3) being "Landing Force Swords". Any time some sword mystery has appeared on the various forums, it's like a game of "gossip" erupts, that usually takes years of research in original sources to settle. Probably, something very odd happened around the end of the war, but a lot of very poorly recorded things did. Oh for sure.. lots of weird and poorly documented things from ww2 from japan. no id say these swords are just made of scrap sword parts and sold to anyone who would buy them during ww2.. they are not post war swords and they never sell for much .. that website is crazy in tis prices for all sorts of stuff. but they are a traditional style japanese blade on us sword parts.. so mostlikely whoever was making the use sword sin japan before ww2 had lots of castings and handles and needed to make some money back as they were nolonger getting$$$ for the americans buying dress swords and put a more acceptable more useful japanese blade on them.. the blades ive seen are the best thing about these weird swords... nice and sharp and thicker than the original dress sword blades. they are not collectors items with any appeal.. and not military items.. probably originally some weird civillian product they offered to make some $$
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Post by Spathologist on Oct 1, 2021 2:30:00 GMT
To expand on US production, we would be regarding the Springfield Armory and LF&C m1913 cavalry swords. Virtually all the US sword sales after WWI were/are imports. Even the Ames m1906 cavalry swords used German blades. Cheers GC There were US-made swords through the 1930s and 1940s. Examples from the period marked with some variant of MADE USA are fairly common. The now-defunct amessword.com supposedly had all of Lilley-Ames machinery and may have made their own blades before having to import Windlass blades as the business declined, but I can't swear to that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2021 7:54:18 GMT
We know Ames moved to Ohio but we can be fairly certain they didn't transport the foundry and forge. Lilley had been relying on imports much from the start. Ames themselves had been trading with Horstmann and others before the ACW. I have my own doubts that Ames was doing much forging at all after the Henderson-Ames era. The foundry(ies) a big part of the Ames livelihood. I suspect what Ames sent to Ohio was patterns, molds and some machinery to produce grips, ferrules, etc. I forget the first source I read for the 1906 cavalry discovery of Boker stamped on the blade tangs. Maybe it's a figment of my imagination.
Cheers GC
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Post by Spathologist on Oct 2, 2021 1:56:01 GMT
I forget the first source I read for the 1906 cavalry discovery of Boker stamped on the blade tangs. Maybe it's a figment of my imagination. I have one marked for Carl Eickhorn.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2021 20:02:38 GMT
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