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Post by irwt on Sept 16, 2021 17:57:13 GMT
Afternoon, Anyone here trained in Shodo, or able to decipher this piece of Shodo calligraphy? Both my teacher and myself cannot complete its translation. Attachments:
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tera
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Post by tera on Sept 16, 2021 18:34:50 GMT
I'll ask my wife to have a look when she gets off work, but I ran this through Google Translate's image scanning function. It did not recognize the characters as Japanese, but Chinese. This isn't too unusual.
What was unusual was what it spat out. "One extreme taboo". This may he incorrect, but is interesting.
What is the context for this image? Where was this calligraphy found?
Edit: Individually, the left character is translating as "pole" with a good match on the brushwork. The app may be misidentifying the right character, which it shows as "avoid". The two together it says is an expression, meaning "extreme taboo". All that from AI, though. Again, I'll see if my wife can read it later.
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Post by irwt on Sept 16, 2021 18:54:59 GMT
So this is a work from the headmaster of one of the schools of Mugai Ryu. Mugai Ryu is a sword school known for its connection to Zen. We feel as though the left character is tree, and the right character is "to forget". That was a consensus among Japanese speakers at least. Yeah that would be great if you could ask your wife, see if there is anything more we can bring to the table. I have contacted a Shodo expert as well, as these things can be difficult...
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tera
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Post by tera on Sept 16, 2021 19:36:18 GMT
Do keep in mind that the AI was only able to read it in Chinese. Very often characters can have two meanings when Japanese use Kanji. I suspect the AI interpretation is wrong, but it was interesting enough for me to wonder about the piece.
My wife has actually studied the language, so she may have a better sense of the meaning. At least, if unclear, she will say so.
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Post by irwt on Sept 16, 2021 23:27:39 GMT
Do keep in mind that the AI was only able to read it in Chinese. Very often characters can have two meanings when Japanese use Kanji. I suspect the AI interpretation is wrong, but it was interesting enough for me to wonder about the piece. My wife has actually studied the language, so she may have a better sense of the meaning. At least, if unclear, she will say so. Sounds good, let me know what you find out!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2021 23:34:35 GMT
If anyone can get me the Korean symbols for Sparked Tiger or how to get it I would be greatly appreciative. I am having severely bad luck finding it or a way to get it. 😿😿
Google hates me. 😾😾😾😾
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tera
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Post by tera on Sept 17, 2021 1:04:06 GMT
Ok, so my wife looked at this for about an hour. She has some possible ideas but none she felt more than 25% about, so she was reluctant to share.
However, she had some interesting observations. She says it "just looks wrong." That is, following the general rules for calligraphy, several strokes are backwards or upside down. She wonders if the artist was left handed. That isn't unheard of, but not following proper stroke order or direction is odd even for a left handed person. She respectfully floated the idea this may have been an attempt to copy a work by someone who didn't fully know what they were doing (like and American).
I wouldn't mention the "doesn't know what they were doing" part, but maybe ask some of the Nihongo speakers who reviewed this if some of the strokes seem backwards (several are right to left that should be left to right, and at least one appears to be from the bottom up instead of top down). Also ask about the radical of the one in the left. It might be Hand, Talent, or Beast, or none of those. It also looks wrong, but may imply age. That is, it doesn't quite follow modern standards, so possibly pre-WWII or, again, just someone who wasn't following standard rules for a brush.
Imagine writing a capital B by starting at the bottom of the bottom curve, stopping at the middle, drawing the straight line bottom up, then finishing with the top loop from top to bottom. Try that on paper with a flowing ink pen, then look at it. It's that weird.
And again, as much as we believe Google Translate to be wrong, the AI doesn't see recognizable Japanese when it looks at this either. It does see and interpret Chinese, for whatever that's worth.
More info on the history of the piece would be awesome. This is an exciting mystery. How did it come into the owner's possession? Is the author known? Any idea of age?
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Post by irwt on Sept 17, 2021 1:13:46 GMT
It is from Yoshitaro Nakatani, who is the Soke (Head Master) of Mugai Ryu Iai Hyodo. He must be in his 80s I imagine. My teacher, Ryusuke Juge Sensei, gave it to me, but neither of us were able to really flesh it out.
Some Japanese speakers have read it as TREE...and something about forgetting...
Yes, I am very curious as well. It was passed onto me and I have it up on my wall, and I cannot figure it out. I am contacting Shodo experts to let me know what may be going on.
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tera
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Post by tera on Sept 17, 2021 21:46:47 GMT
That is a significant and sentimental piece. I hope I did not offend. Sincerely, it is beyond our knowledge. Perhaps the odd strokes are intentional and hold some hidden meaning. Zen practitioners are definitely like that.
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Post by irwt on Sept 17, 2021 22:52:38 GMT
No offense taken at all. It may very well be due to a multitude of factors. I am still looking for answers, so if anything pops into your head, let me know. I will be sure to let you know to thank you for the help you have already given. It may be a mistake he did, or an intentional mistake, or we have not yet discovered the context of this. With Shodo, as you well know, it is more complex than simply reading a given sentence. I'll keep poking around!
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Post by irwt on Sept 18, 2021 2:16:04 GMT
I have an update:
A Shodo expert from Japan said they need to think about this one, but that it is most likely a Zen expression, and done in a subset style of Shodo called SOSHO.
"Sosho is the most difficult type of calligraphy to master and comprehend. This cursive style is thought to emulate the effect of the wind blowing grass, where characters flow into one another. Strokes are greatly modified, and sometimes even eliminated, to create a smooth sensation of writing. Shosho is used mostly in abstract works of art, especially Zen art, where it’s important to transmit energy throughout your work."
So we shall see what it may say once they can sit with the piece a little longer.
This is probably why your wife thought mistakes were made, because it appears as though this style is modified. Your wife has a good eye!
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