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Post by MichaelRS on Sept 13, 2021 7:12:37 GMT
So, to get some more suggestions as to where I might find a reputable source for the m1860 style light US Cavalry sabre that I'm interested in, I've been in a couple of different forums and on Facebook.
When it comes to one of the most popular out there, the one made by Windlass and sold by various retailers, everyone's like, Well it's 50/50 hit and miss and this could be wrong with it and that's wrong with it and it's not durable and blah blah blah blah.
Then a few of the suggestions where that I should get a antique one and use it for whatever purpose I have in mind: Which is a combination of hanging on my wall to look at and taking it down from time to time for a little lite cutting and then returning it to said wall.
And then a third heard/read comment was a long line of, They never met ANY reproduction sword that's really worth it.
Now I don't know if these people were picky purest or what, but it really seems odd to me that there cannot be a reproduction m1860-like Calvary saber out there worth a damn.
I mean, think about it; 150 - 200 years ago they were producing many hundreds, probably thousands, of these sabers suitable for military use ("battle ready"🙄) from the Civil War on through the turn of the century.
And you're trying to tell me that today, and for the last 20 or 30 years, with all the advances in machining technology and metallurgy since the early or middle of the 19th century, there's nobody out there niw that can or is producing a functional, quality reproduction m1860 saber for a reasonable price and that all the reproductions out there are crap to one degree or another.
I mean I understand the market for wall hangers and swords that don't be any need to any more kind of sturdy than for ceremonial use. But that there's no one out there filling the other need in the market for people who would want something that is actually a little more functional? That is just plain silly.
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Post by CivilSavage on Sept 13, 2021 8:26:18 GMT
First: It is as you said, there were thousands (likely more than that)that were made and there are still many of these sabers in original format that, by and large, are not that expensiveand readily available for purchase. You can still pick up a US Civil War era saber with a little bit of effort for a price that is reasonable to a mid range replica of a medieval sword. Their is not compelling reason to enter a market already flush with reasonable replicas that could be competitive.
Second: Which ties to the first, is to have a properly made reproduction, at least in the US would make a saber cost easily closer to $1000 than to $500. While I am unclear on the processes associated with the scabbard manufacturing (which in my mind seems more complex and time consuming) it would make these weapons cost even more. To my experience making a blade and hilt is eminently more simple than a metal or metal framed scabbard is to manufacture.
Third: I think it would be possible to perhaps"intervene" on behalf of a company like Universal Swords or such and push for more accurate blades and historical dynamic performance (proper taper, blade thicknesses, etc). Universal is 85% there already and they are clearly set up to make the scabbards associated with historical military sabers. Perhaps they lack the equipment or historical data to properly emulate the pieces they endeavor to create. Maybe then, military sabers would have a manufacturing niche that could support a more cost effective end product.
Fourth: While historical sabers are wonderful and orginals available...time will eliminate them. Faster in some cases a than others. Also, by having a historical value I do not imagine too many owners of said pieces would want to utilize their "investment" much if at all i the fashion that repros are. So back to your desire of a quality product that you could use regularly for Saber technique, backyard cutting/competion etc.
I think that it is more hopeful that sabers "inspired by" military styles could be produced without worrying that it matched the design specs of a troopers 1796 LC saber or not. Additionally how many sword afficionadoes pracrtice mounted saber drill? How many have access to a horse? So many of the sabers available were more or less intended for mounted combat with the smattering of infantry/artillery NCO and Officer sabers. Meaning a slighly shorter blade length appropriate for infantry. Not to mention even shorter hangers for regular infantry if they carreid them at all.
I myself would like to see some modern interpretation of military style sabers that are derived from the overall design spec but are not associated woith an specific nation or historical context other then dynamic performance and aesthetic. A simple stirrup hilted saber with brass or steel hilt furniter, nicely curved blade with a fuller and either a hatchet or spear pointed tip. Really my inspiriation comes from the synthetic and steel practice sabers from the like of Black Fencer and others. Simplified and functional.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2021 9:00:12 GMT
It is easy to start making assumptions without really studying a subject and repeating discussions from the past twenty years.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 13, 2021 10:53:31 GMT
My Cold Steel "1860" (= in principle a sharpened Windlass 1840) is a big beast but I would buy it again. The Windlass 1906 is relative close to the originals and was in production until last year at least but discontinued in the US for more years. Probably the best US Cav. saber repro but it has the steel hilt. I don't have the Windlass 1860 troopers but the sluggish officers. The 1860 troopers is cheap, not bad for a starting experience I think.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Sept 13, 2021 12:19:09 GMT
I think Hagataka summed it up very well. It really comes down to marketing and market demand. There just isn't the interest in sabers as there is in other swords like medieval European and Japanese. You can thank Hollywood for a lot of that. What is interesting to "pop culture' will create a demand. Sabers just aren't "cool" in the minds of the public.
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Post by pellius on Sept 13, 2021 12:47:30 GMT
I suppose I’m in the camp that never met ANY reproduction sword that's really worth it. At least with regard to 19th Century sabers. All of my earlier period swords are replicas, and I like them quite a lot.
When I started getting into cavalry sabers, I encountered the same frustration. No good replicas even at Albion prices. Same advice, too: just buy an antique.
Back when I was starting out, there seemed to be a lot of lower end antique/vintage cav sabers in the market. I found a few right here on SBG. There were fully intact and rust-free but visually flawed examples available that serious collectors had no interest in. They could be had very reasonably.
I long thought that the availability of cheap antiques set the cost bar so low for repro’s, they had to be made cheaply.
I started to doubt that when I discovered the mythical French ANXI light cavalry saber. Very popular, and very (to my meager budget) expensive. No way I was gonna buy an original. Yet faithful repro’s we’re just as unavailable.
Now the “commonly available” antiques seem to have gone into hiding, and antiques in awful condition have ridiculous (to me) asking prices.
Hopefully the repro makers will step up.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2021 13:16:54 GMT
<sarcasm> That's right. All those inexpensive broadswords and katanas are a lot more available, and such better battle ready deals. </sarcasm>
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Post by pellius on Sept 13, 2021 13:59:25 GMT
<sarcasm> That's right. All those inexpensive broadswords and katanas are a lot more available, and such better battle ready deals. </sarcasm> Absolutely! Even relatively inexpensive nihonto are out of my price range, and there is just a ton to know before buying. The entry price is way out of my league. Of course, a genuine antique broadsword that’s still in useable condition is unthinkable for me. For these models, replicas are the only option from the get-go. Even then, Albions and Citadels (or pick your similar priced maker) are generally not in my ballpark. So I end up with the likes of Hanwei’s Cawood and Hanbon’s katana. I can only dream of handling the Cawood sword to get a feel for the original. Less impossible is to one day have a nihonto owner share his or her collection with me. Thankfully, I have been fortunate enough to own a few budget-friendly antique sabers. For me, that was a much better option than repro’s. Hopefully, repro saber makers will step on up.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2021 14:32:00 GMT
My point is that available reproduction sabres can be just as worthy as similarly priced swords of other genre.
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Post by pellius on Sept 13, 2021 14:37:01 GMT
My point is that available reproduction sabres can be just as worthy as similarly priced swords of other genre. Opinions vary, I suppose. Your experience and knowledge is far superior to mine, so your opinion is much better founded. Still, my opinion is what it is.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Sept 13, 2021 15:17:51 GMT
I agree with all of you. To spur progress, Hollywood needs to make a character that uses a saber, in a 'cool' movie to add buzz. This would give makers a nudge.
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Post by snubnoze on Sept 13, 2021 15:23:27 GMT
My point is that available reproduction sabres can be just as worthy as similarly priced swords of other genre. There are a lot of bad swords similarly priced in other genres. Are their any good production ones though?
I stick with antiques but even they aren't cheap in most cases, and if I wanted something to use for regular cutting I wouldn't use an antique I would just use a different sword type repro. It would be nice to have a quality production model but seems going the custom route, which isn't cheap, will give you better results but I've never handled any of the production repros they never passed the eye test for me.
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Post by kjakker on Sept 13, 2021 15:26:48 GMT
I similarly have been looking for an M1850 foot officer sword reproduction they have the same problems. This has me looking at French Mle 1845 which the M1850 is a copy of and lack the US Civil War association to drive up the price.
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 13, 2021 15:58:22 GMT
I suppose I’m in the camp that never met ANY reproduction sword that's really worth it. At least with regard to 19th Century sabers. All of my earlier period swords are replicas, and I like them quite a lot. When I started getting into cavalry sabers, I encountered the same frustration. No good replicas even at Albion prices. Same advice, too: just buy an antique. Back when I was starting out, there seemed to be a lot of lower end antique/vintage cav sabers in the market. I found a few right here on SBG. There were fully intact and rust-free but visually flawed examples available that serious collectors had no interest in. They could be had very reasonably. I long thought that the availability of cheap antiques set the cost bar so low for repro’s, they had to be made cheaply. I started to doubt that when I discovered the mythical French ANXI light cavalry saber. Very popular, and very (to my meager budget) expensive. No way I was gonna buy an original. Yet faithful repro’s we’re just as unavailable. Now the “commonly available” antiques seem to have gone into hiding, and antiques in awful condition have ridiculous (to me) asking prices. Hopefully the repro makers will step up. I was spoiled early on cavalry sabers (among many other items), because back in 1969, the very first sword that I ever owned was a Japanese Type 32 "ko" pattern cavalry saber in mint condition with matching serial numbers, that I bought at a militaria store in Houston, Texas for $25.00. At the same place, you could find everything from British Indian tulwars to Austro-Hungarian executioner's swords, all real, all original, and all cheaply priced (along with a semprini-ton of old firearms, bayonets, original uniforms and web gear, and other memoribilia, all reasonably priced). Deep River Armory, long since gone. All the guys in my JROTC unit hung out there at one time or another.
Having handled, examined, and sometimes used original examples of a lot of things that are reproduced today, I am certain that the fit, finish, feel, balance, and durability are seldom the same, and often not as good. The originals were made in times and places where skilled labor was cheap and replaceable, natural materials were still cheap, adherence to shop standards and specifications was strict, and the expanding colonial empires that most of the stuff was made for lacked a sense of humor, to say the least. The reproductions aren't being made under that kind of pressure, and it shows.
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Post by jack88 on Sept 13, 2021 16:07:03 GMT
No need, the real deal is super cheap. I bought a decent 1860 for $400.
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Post by treeslicer on Sept 13, 2021 16:40:59 GMT
<sarcasm> That's right. All those inexpensive broadswords and katanas are a lot more available, and such better battle ready deals. </sarcasm> IMHO, katana and medieval swords are easier to automate production for, and get an acceptable result, than something with a more complicated design involving lots of fiddly bits and critical fits.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2021 17:34:40 GMT
<shrug>that's fine</shrug>
I see crappy ito maki and crooked fittings. Folk are fine sucking those up and feeling quite satisfied for what they spent. After all, they would rather spend their money on what appeals to them, warts and all. I just don't see the difference. I do still have my dedicated repro I bought for cutting and it is fine, for what it is.
Can you show me a Windlass sabre review where the fit and finish is really that horribly done, or are they simply ungainly if you put a period sword next to them? When you put an Albion sword next to a Windlass, what differences are there that are so unlike comparing a repro Windlass cavalry sword to a period sword.
Can you dispute the spread sheets Dave Kelly posted years ago and the ongoing Markus data sets? Can you take someone else's hammer and drive a nail? One might like an Estwing over a Stanley but even the knock offs can get the job done.
I simply see the reproductions as different and quality amongst them simply the same formulae of grades in quality. Don't expect a $70 sabre to be as nice as a $150 sabre. It is not so much that they can't provide exact copies, it is just that it is not cost effective. Dynasty Forge tried it. Hanwei has tried it.
The same result as a "custom" Hanbon or single edge Balaur viking sword stuffed in a 14th century scabbard that's "great, for the money". A flavor of the year, they are simply "scrumptious" and precious to some.
Fine for the money, whatever it is that floats one's boat.
Turn me over, I'm done on this side.
Cheers GC
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Post by MichaelRS on Sept 13, 2021 18:53:54 GMT
I appreciate everybody taking the time to respond and share their thoughts on this, especially those taking the time for some of the longer responses.
A couple of you made sound points that I had previously pointed out to respondents on other forums when they told me about what might be wrong with a reproduction Windlass; And that is, in my "ignorance is bliss" state, how would I know?
Whatever feeling or handling characteristics it had, without having experienced anything better, I would just figure that's the way it was and and would have to adapt myself to those probably with some degree of satisfaction, being ignorant of what it is I'm supposed to be dissatisfied with. I imagine just like I am with my Hanbon Katanas and wakizashis.
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Post by MichaelRS on Sept 14, 2021 5:13:02 GMT
Well, screw it. Here's one I found for a good price. Maybe I'll just get it and be satisfied. Attachments:
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Sept 14, 2021 6:34:55 GMT
Bah, buy an antique, better handling, less sloppy fittings and I've heard one of them broke by opening a letter.
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