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Post by jack88 on Oct 4, 2021 12:09:51 GMT
Ah, the age-old question of what the best sidearm is to carry into the wilderness. The simple answer is there is no single solution to encompass all needs. I personally think some of the closest derive out of the Philippines, there is a long history of utilitarian long knife use doubling as a weapon. Many examples are given here, I am fascinated by so "sidearms" and their development with the expansion in the use of gunpowder. Bladed weapons shrank in size and became a fixation to the belt where they stay until this day, but there are some obvious larger weapons that resemble swords of old in the transition period where gunpowder weapons still were slow to reload and sometimes unreliable. Briquets are an obvious cross between swords and knives, many kinjals are the size of short swords as well. Bowie knives can be longer than 12", and kukri's/sirupti's. I own pretty much all of the above, I think most avid outdoorsmen will tell you an axe/belt knife combo is the most utilitarian match possible. Some increase the belt knife into the bowie knife range. I have a long thinly bladed kukri which is a modern adaptation that is my go-to hiking blade for its brush clearing ability. I'd also suggest checking out the ginunting. Machetes just don't have the strength to survive serious chopping in my book, they are cheap though I've trashed many growing up in Hawaii clearing brush (prior to my blade obsession). In conclusion, there are many proverbial ways to skin this cat (though that's possible too ) and it ends in preference. Historically many of these examples were used primarily as utilitarian tools far more than as weapons (even those designed as weapons). Cheers.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Oct 4, 2021 12:27:38 GMT
I can’t say how the Nepalese use a karda. I have seen them carry a second something in their scabbard along with a khukuri. Only the handle is exposed so I don’t know whether it’s a karda or a chukmak. I can only guess karda. As for me I use a karda frequently, but not that thing Windlass provided me with that came with their Mk3, and there are periods more so than a kukri. I didn’t mean to rely solely on the karda as second knife. When I was in the field I carried a sheath knife of 10-12", sometimes a machete, but always a small Case sheath knife with about a 4” blade that got much use, and my Camillus GI pocket knife which was really a multi-tool.
Like virtually all Yanks I didn’t know how to use a machete. Only that it had a long blade and a handle at the other end and it was intended for cutting. How simple is that and what more is there to know?
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Post by howler on Oct 4, 2021 20:17:28 GMT
Ah, the age-old question of what the best sidearm is to carry into the wilderness. The simple answer is there is no single solution to encompass all needs. I personally think some of the closest derive out of the Philippines, there is a long history of utilitarian long knife use doubling as a weapon. Many examples are given here, I am fascinated by so "sidearms" and their development with the expansion in the use of gunpowder. Bladed weapons shrank in size and became a fixation to the belt where they stay until this day, but there are some obvious larger weapons that resemble swords of old in the transition period where gunpowder weapons still were slow to reload and sometimes unreliable. Briquets are an obvious cross between swords and knives, many kinjals are the size of short swords as well. Bowie knives can be longer than 12", and kukri's/sirupti's. I own pretty much all of the above, I think most avid outdoorsmen will tell you an axe/belt knife combo is the most utilitarian match possible. Some increase the belt knife into the bowie knife range. I have a long thinly bladed kukri which is a modern adaptation that is my go-to hiking blade for its brush clearing ability. I'd also suggest checking out the ginunting. Machetes just don't have the strength to survive serious chopping in my book, they are cheap though I've trashed many growing up in Hawaii clearing brush (prior to my blade obsession). In conclusion, there are many proverbial ways to skin this cat (though that's possible too ) and it ends in preference. Historically many of these examples were used primarily as utilitarian tools far more than as weapons (even those designed as weapons). Cheers. Yet another heavy machete type, the Ginunting, which I think would go head to head with a kukri, particularly with that longer length. The one thing I see in common with any large bladed weapon still carried in the modern world is multi-function utility.
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Post by pgandy on Oct 4, 2021 22:19:04 GMT
If you are going to include a ginunting I’ll throw in my pinuti.
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Post by howler on Oct 4, 2021 22:26:46 GMT
If you are going to include a ginunting I’ll throw in my pinuti. Absolutely.
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Post by jack88 on Oct 4, 2021 23:02:38 GMT
Yet another heavy machete type, the Ginunting, which I think would go head to head with a kukri, particularly with that longer length. The one thing I see in common with any large bladed weapon still carried in the modern world is multi-function utility. When talking about machetes, absolutely. Any jungle or heavily forested area a long-bladed tool as such is nearly required. More difficult to carry, but go cut your way through some Pacific-styled jungles or even some swampland and a long blade is needed. Machetes are obviously great at this also, but they failed when being dually used for camp shores. If you are going to include a ginunting I’ll throw in my pinuti. I said long blades of the Phillippines I think that would include the pinuti, there really is a vast amount of slightly different long-bladed weapons from the area. I just like my ginunting. Kukri's are fine weapons and tools, especially modern styled kukri's. I own many, though no antiques (would like to change that) I own the mutiny from kailash, a great modern take on a kukri along with a kydex sheath, solid work: kailashblades.com/product-category/traditional/Tora blades makes the best traditional kukri's around easily, their British service issue is an incredibly capable knife could not recommend it more.
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Post by Murffy on Oct 5, 2021 14:45:45 GMT
I'm still thinking the kukri is the best all-arounder. An optimal brush-clearing machete will be too light to do any real wood chopping. The hatchet/knife combo will be only marginally useful for hacking through a brush covered portion of the trail. A kukri will serve in a pinch for any of these roles.
>Tora blades makes the best traditional kukri's around easily
That may be. I don't have a Tora. But I'm not sure how the quality could be much better than my G.G.K. kukris.
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Post by pgandy on Oct 5, 2021 17:34:23 GMT
Just a personal observation. I hear best and quality frequently regarding kukris. And now I see consistently in the above post. I by no means am putting these qualities down. If that is what one desires by all means go for it. Most kukris especially from Nepal are handmade so some variations can be expected, and for me desired. I am not looking for something made in mass by modern production methods where each is exactly like the one that preceded it or followed. GGK seems to be the most preferred by our members and they do make an attractive kukri, all shiny and glittering. I recently obtained a Windlass Mk3 and many members couldn’t understand because there are many “better” offerings out there. I’ll agree with everything said including a reference to the statement of lowest bid quality. I like that kukri and admit that everything included with it is junk which I have discarded except the scabbard. The frog went also. As for the terrible scabbard, I made it useable by shimming the throat and shoving hair in it. I enjoy using that kukri. As for a true look at the Nepalese and their khukuris there is a video below. Most Nepalese could not come close to what the forges are charging the westerners. A villager will pay 2,000-4,000Rs (≈17-33 USD). They also seem to use without exception turnished blades. While westerners go for white shiny metal blades including a mirror finish.
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Post by pgandy on Oct 5, 2021 20:18:41 GMT
That post was not meant to be directed at you, only the consistency. I am sure patina is involved. On my screen some looked blued. Mostly that statement was based on a machete gifted to me as I had none at that time. This one was well used and abused on receiving it. It also had patina but other parts were blued. Not the high quality one would expect on a firearm. Since then I have used it extensively and it has served me well.
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Post by Simpleman on Oct 5, 2021 20:23:02 GMT
Just a personal observation. I hear best and quality frequently regarding kukris. And now I see consistently in the above post. I by no means am putting these qualities down. If that is what one desires by all means go for it. Most kukris especially from Nepal are handmade so some variations can be expected, and for me desired. I am not looking for something made in mass by modern production methods where each is exactly like the one that preceded it or followed. GGK seems to be the most preferred by our members and they do make an attractive kukri, all shiny and glittering. I recently obtained a Windlass Mk3 and many members couldn’t understand because there are many “better” offerings out there. I’ll agree with everything said including a reference to the statement of lowest bid quality. I like that kukri and admit that everything included with it is junk which I have discarded except the scabbard. The frog went also. As for the terrible scabbard, I made it useable by shimming the throat and shoving hair in it. I enjoy using that kukri. As for a true look at the Nepalese and their khukuris there is a video below. Most Nepalese could not come close to what the forges are charging the westerners. A villager will pay 2,000-4,000Rs (≈17-33 USD). They also seem to use without exception blued blades. This is a unattractive matt finish. While westerners go for white shiny metal blades including a mirror finish. Thank you for reminding us about the tool approach (as they are), while collectors and others treat their khukuris with great care, and perhaps should if they are antiques, there is something to be said about the finish, sometimes divided into polished (incl mirror), satin and "raw". I think just about every manufacturer has a couple of mirror polished ones, from a practical standpoint, that doesnt make sense to me. I may lack imagination but I cant see any advantages to it. With the exception that some may think it looks good. And also note that the folks in the video has some rather old khukuris, its not really the idea getting a huge number of them every year but to have them for decades, unless lost or destroyed. But of course many have the khukuri craving, so there are "new" models introduced towards customers to sell them more. All in all I`d encourage everyone to look at Nepal when Khukuris are discussed, not whats on display in Thamel because that says nothing. Look at the countryside.
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Post by pgandy on Oct 5, 2021 20:51:19 GMT
I stand corrected and have changed that to tarnished.
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Post by pgandy on Oct 5, 2021 21:15:43 GMT
I agree. On the down side though that show scratches and imperfections easily that digging and other chores are sure to do. But all seriousness aside on the plus side though when in the field the reflective characteristic of a mirror finish can be used for shaving. 😁
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Post by Murffy on Oct 5, 2021 21:58:50 GMT
Admittedly, my GGKs are nice and shiny. Doing a little actual brush-clearing work on a friend's property not long ago, it was my Condor kukri machete that got the nod. I have no doubt my GGKs would perform better and hold up well. I just didn't want to get them mucked up.
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Post by Simpleman on Oct 5, 2021 22:42:51 GMT
One problem with mirror polish is that, in snow, rain or humidity after a few hours work, it will rapidly start to vanish. Yep, orange rust. Actually also by just chopping as you have seen. It will stay shiny just as long as you can maintain it really well, and that is rarely the case (not even mentioning what some foods will do to the blade), in rain or submerged the scabbard will get wet and then it puts spots on the blade rather fast (sorry 5160). Thats why many sells "rougher" blades in "raw" or satin finish. Shiny can look nice for sure but are for parades or decoration, in my opinion. And nothing wrong with that, through the years and until today khukuris have been bought as souvenirs. The point that it lessens friction I think then is more interesting, I cant say that I know how much difference that would make in practical terms, I think that could be a rather theoretical comparison. That is if blindtested, I am not sure the difference is being felt. It also depends on what methods of sharpening that is being used and how that affect lets say the bevel. Edit: Two videos showing common way of sharpening.
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Post by Simpleman on Oct 5, 2021 23:52:00 GMT
Here I must admit that axes are nothing I can claim knowledge about, I wish I could but I cant. But guessing wildly I dont think it matters either way. I just dont think when blindfolded I could notice a difference between mirror and satin. Then I would say other aspects matters more. I posted the sharpening videos as an example, after you have done this only once, were the abrasion has been, the mirror polish is gone. If you look at Gränsfors bruk for instance, they use satin finish or totally unpolished. If you think about it, how many other tools are either satin, mirror or raw? www.gransforsus.com/shop/
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Post by pgandy on Oct 6, 2021 2:44:21 GMT
How many will bet that his grip won’t come up the finish on my raw grip that finds disfavour with many due to its roughness? Unfortunately we’ll never know as khukuris are so common and taken for granted in Nepal the cameraman only includes a few scenes in passing, like the scabbard he was making amongst others. This is unusual as he is not setting the blade using a hot tang burning is way in.
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Post by Simpleman on Oct 6, 2021 7:57:41 GMT
I like the finish on the Gränsfors Bruk axes. I have one of them, the Scandinivation forest axe model. But I don't believe the brute-de-forge style finish to be ideal for actual performance. If you look at the "racing axe" I posted, it's made for maximum penetration where the mirror polish benefits it just that tiny bit more. I am just speaking about advantages, not practicality or ease of maintenance, etc. Also, you can look at these very high-quality fireman's axes here, also built for maximum penetration, you will notice the mirror polish. www.firefighteraxe.com/axes.phpGood discussion. I think there are some distinctions to be made, the first axe you posted was a racing and sport axe, I would assume they have made an axe suitable for a specific task, competitions. The second firemans axe is also not for outdoors work but the tasks of a fireman (can be used for smashing windows or doors to gain entry, or to chop holes in a roof for ventilation). My viewpoint is use in the outdoors, all year around in all climates. You could be right in that mirror penetrates better, but for me looking at it as a work tool, it doesnt matter, the mirror polish will vanish quickly and while it is there carries no noticable advantage. If you look at a billhook, a japanesee sickle or just about any machete, they will rarely if ever have a mirror polish.
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Post by Simpleman on Oct 6, 2021 8:49:06 GMT
My viewpoint starts with whats practical (maintenance included of course) when the tool is used, I think we come from two different standpoints and may therefore value the finish differently.
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Post by Simpleman on Oct 6, 2021 10:35:35 GMT
Nah, nothing to do with values or viewpoints. The rougher the blade finish, the more surface area material(And moisture, acids, etc.) has to get a purchase on.
I will try and make a summary of what I think because I see the heading "Machete vs Khukuri", and would like to continue that path. Any advantages with mirror polish? Could be but the difference cant be felt when blindfolded (chopping wood), other aspects much more important. Its more of a theoretical discussion then noticed in the hand. If there would be a difference, it would diminish within a day. Rain, snow, ice, moisture, grass, leafs, tree sap and food will easy put stains on the blade and dirt and sand will cause abrasion on the blade, if we talk the steel types khukuris usually are made from. If you can do optimal maintanance you can slow this process down, in reality maintanance is very difficult, especially when you dont can dry your things and the scabbard gets moist. But in a controlled setting like an competition, mirror polish even for a khukuri could make sense. Then ad sharpening against a rock. Using the khukuri as a hammer (wood), the mirror polish will come flying of in no time. Looking at various gardening tools, sickles, billhooks, shovels and outdoor axes, they are rarely with mirror polish. For me concering khukuris and tools, unless it is a practical advantage, it cant be an advantage. Nothing wrong with mirror polish but thats for decoration and parades. Its the only place where the mirror polish will survive. And of course look at machetes, how their finish is.
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Post by Simpleman on Oct 6, 2021 11:50:29 GMT
How many will bet that his grip won’t come up the finish on my raw grip that finds disfavour with many due to its roughness? Unfortunately we’ll never know as khukuris are so common and taken for granted in Nepal the cameraman only includes a few scenes in passing, like the scabbard he was making amongst others. This is unusual as he is not setting the blade using a hot tang burning is way in. Two other channels, since you seem to like these. I do. Please note that a sickle and a heavy machete is used, and look at the handle on the machete.. Many khukuris are seen, but also saws and axes are used.
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