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Post by alientude on Jul 23, 2021 3:24:21 GMT
This will be a long post, as I detail everything that has happened. I'll post a short version, with just the most basic information and conclusion, and then the long version, where I go into painstaking detail.
Short Version I did not receive $1000 worth of swords in a trade deal due to a shipping error that should have been caught by mikeofrivia . He has refused to take responsibility and will not respond to any message. Conclusion: I recommend you DO NOT TRUST mikeofrivia as a seller or trader.
Long Version
I had an Albion Prince + Christian Fletcher scabbard up for sale, asking price $1600 + shipping. On 6/30, mikeofrivia posted that he had a Valiant Armoury Signature Edition Irish Ring Pommel Longsword he would like to trade for an Albion Prince. I had sold him a sword before, and the transaction went smoothly, so I messaged him, and after some back and forth bargaining, we ended up on the following deal:
I send him the Albion Prince + Christian Fletcher scabbard.
He sends me the VA Irish Ring, a Balaur Arms 13th to 14th Century longsword, and $600 via Paypal.
He sent me the $600 via Paypal that night. I boxed up the Prince and scabbard as soon as I received the money, and shipped it the next day, 7/1, via USPS Priority Mail 2 day. I provided mikeofrivia with a picture of the label, as I do with all packages I send. Tracking showed the package was delivered 7/6, and mikeofrivia confirmed he received it safely that day.
On 7/3, mikeofrivia shipped the two swords via USPS Priority Mail and provided me the tracking number. He did not send me a picture of the label.
On 7/6, USPS tracking showed the package delivered, well before the mail person came to my house. When I did get my mail delivery, there was no package. I PM'd mikeofrivia about it. I tried calling my local post office, but they never answer their phone. Instead I looked around on their website and it said to wait 24 hours, then email the local PO at a provided email address if the package still wasn't delivered.
The next day, the mail came with no package. Instead of emailing the PO, I went there in person and spoke to a supervisor, who looked up the tracking number. It showed a completely different delivery address than mine. He also had a (blurry, barely readable) picture of the label that showed the address it was delivered to, not my address.
I went to the address USPS delivered the package and spoke to a young lady who denied receiving any packages.
I PM'd mikeofrivia about the incorrect address, and he noticed that the delivery address was suspiciously similar to his home address - the street number was the same, and the street name was very close. We decided that what happened is that the postal worker typed in the correct delivery zip code, but then put in mikeofrivia's "from" address into the delivery address, and the computer system found the best match for that street and autocompleted with that.
I decided to go back to the delivery address. This time I spoke to a different young lady, who also denied receiving any package. She said her parents weren't home at the time (at the store), but she took my phone number and said she'd give it to them. I did not hear back.
The next day (7/8), I went to the police department to ask them if there was anything they could do. They said since the package was delivered to the address on the label, there wasn't anything they could do - it was a USPS problem, and I'd have to talk to them. I went back to the post office and spoke to a different supervisor. I explained what it looks like happened with the mixup of the addresses, and he agreed that our conclusion made sense. But he said since they delivered the package to the address on the label, there was nothing they could do.
Mikeofrivia went to his local post office a couple times and spoke to a couple different people, who all told him the same thing that I was told - it was delivered to the address on the label, therefore, USPS did their job and there was nothing to be done.
At this point (7/14), I told mikeofrivia that I considered the trade incomplete. I held up my end of the bargain by getting him the Albion Prince + Christian Fletcher scabbard, but all I received was $600. I did not receive the $1000 worth of swords because of a mistake that he should have caught with his shipping. I said that as I saw it, he either should send me $1000 or an acceptable trade equivalent, or he could send the Prince + scabbard back to me in the same condition, and I would refund him the $600 when I received it.
Since I sent that message, mikeofrivia has completely ignored me. During this whole fiasco, he consistently logged onto these forums once or twice a day and responded to my messages promptly. He did log on after I sent that message, but since he (presumably) read it, he has not logged back on. I sent him a couple more PMs, two emails, and one text. All ignored.
At this point, it's clear to me that mikeofrivia has decided that he is not responsible for making this right. I don't think I'm being unreasonable here, but I suppose I could be wrong. In any case, I'm going to pursue a small claims court action against him, as I believe it's wrong that I have to shoulder the loss for a mistake he should have caught.
Conclusion: I recommend you DO NOT TRUST mikeofrivia as a seller or trader. He does not accept responsibility for items he ships.
Quick edit a couple hours after posting: Please keep in mind this is just my side of the story, and it is my opinion that a shipper should be responsible for getting the package to the recipient. I'm not saying that mikeofrivia had any ill intentions, but I do think it's on him to make sure his end of the bargain was held up. You are free to disagree.
Update 9/1/2021: mikeofrivia finally replied to my multiple attempts at communication. He offered to split the difference on the advise of his lawyer. So he offered $500. Since I believe traveling to his state, getting a hotel, and dealing with the small claims case would probably end up costing at least as much as the other $500, and there's certainly no guarantee that I would get reimbursed for that even if I won the case, I decided to accept the offer and put this dispute to rest. mikeofrivia sent payment today, and I now consider the dispute resolved.
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Jul 23, 2021 18:00:21 GMT
Thanks for the warning. mikeofrivia really needed (not should've but needed) to provide a picture of the shipping label AND confirmation with you before shipping the package out: Both as a show of consideration for getting details like shipping address correct and good faith. But he didn't. You had to go through this game of dealing with the PO, Police and back to PO again wasting lots of time because the PO since the dawn of time barely answers phone calls and expects you and the shipper to sort these disputes out. And mikeofrivia didn't respond back when the issue of the $1000 and responsibility was brought up, wow. If it happened to me I would straight out call him a crook with ill intentions because that's what it looks like and I don't like jumping through hoops someone else created wasting my time for nothing. And a VA Signature Edition Irish Ring Pommel sword sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/64775/wtt-va-irish-ring-longsword is in no way worth an Albion Prince or Albion Sovereign with Bronze Pommel for trade but he still asked for it in thread and got an Albion Top Tier Production Prince Sword and CF Scabbard for a mere $600 out of this deal.
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stormmaster
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Post by stormmaster on Jul 23, 2021 18:13:25 GMT
I always ask the buyer to confirm address before I ship and then send a picture of the label to confirm once again, I've actually had 1 time where the incorrect zip code was inputed but corrected within the same hr so the package went to the right place because both me and the buyer would double and triple check. I'm so sorry u had this happen and I hope he makes it right
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Post by neuronic on Jul 23, 2021 18:21:48 GMT
It has to be determinable where the package landed. So it's an USPS caused problem, from my point of view...
If both of you agree that the package is terminally lost, you should share the loss, of course.
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Jul 23, 2021 18:48:47 GMT
I hope mikeofrivia eventually responds back instead of ignoring you/radio silence and you guys find an agreeable solution.
Sometimes the story has a decent ending, sometimes.
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Kane Shen
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Post by Kane Shen on Jul 23, 2021 19:39:15 GMT
It has to be determinable where the package landed. So it's an USPS caused problem, from my point of view... If both of you agree that the package is terminally lost, you should share the loss, of course. Hmm, I don't think that would be fair, as alientude has done no wrong. He has done everything he should have as one party of this transaction, and has exhausted all the options at his own expense to rectify a mistake made by others. He really deserves to either have the monetary compensation or his Albion Prince back.
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Post by neuronic on Jul 23, 2021 20:10:41 GMT
Did mikeofrivia label the package correctly? If the answer is yes, the loss of the package is not his fault and the loss should be shared. If the answer is no, it's his fault and he should cover the loss.
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Post by joe_meadmaker on Jul 23, 2021 20:16:07 GMT
It has to be determinable where the package landed. So it's an USPS caused problem, from my point of view... If both of you agree that the package is terminally lost, you should share the loss, of course. Hmm, I don't think that would be fair, as alientude has done no wrong. He has done everything he should have as one party of this transaction, and has exhausted all the options at his own expense to rectify a mistake made by others. He really deserves to either have the monetary compensation or his Albion Prince back. Not to mention using that same philosophy, if you ordered something online and never receive the package, you would still be liable for 50% of the cost. I don't think anyone would be okay with that. I agree that the seller is responsible for getting a package to the recipient. Alientude should get his sword back, or payment for it. It is the responsibility of mikeofrivia to work with the post office on any further action.
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Post by alientude on Jul 23, 2021 20:24:13 GMT
Did mikeofrivia label the package correctly? If the answer is yes, the loss of the package is not his fault and the loss should be shared. If the answer is no, it's his fault and he should cover the loss.
Consider the following:
1) I haven't seen the package, so I cannot say if mikeofrivia labeled it correctly. 2) USPS has a picture of the printed label with barcode that shows the incorrect address. mikeofrivia said that he wrote the To address in sharpie on the box. 3) There is no evidence that mikeofrivia either correctly or incorrectly labeled the box. 4) I can't get more evidence or really anything, because mikeofrivia is wholly ignoring me.
I look at it like this. If I'd bought something from a shop and there was a mistake with the shipping label that prevented me from receiving the item I bought, I wouldn't just say "oh well, semprini happens, guess I'm out my money." Nor would I expect to share the loss with the shop. I'd expect them to either refund me the money, or send me a replacement item. I don't see how this is fundamentally any different than that hypothetical situation, but I will always allow the possibility that I'm incorrect.
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Post by joe_meadmaker on Jul 23, 2021 20:24:55 GMT
Did mikeofrivia label the package correctly? If the answer is yes, the loss of the package is not his fault and the loss should be shared. If the answer is no, it's his fault and he should cover the loss. Disagree. If a package is lost, it's the responsibility of the sender to work with and/or get compensation from the delivery service that lost it. If a loss is to be shared by the sender and the recipient, what's to stop someone from selling a sword, never actually shipping it, then claiming it was lost and that both sides must accept half of the loss?
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Post by neuronic on Jul 23, 2021 20:26:12 GMT
It's a privat deal, not a business deal...
Like I said, if the package is declared lost by USPS and mikeofrivia labeled it correctly, what did he do wrong?
So the question is: did he label the package correctly?
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Post by alientude on Jul 23, 2021 20:27:00 GMT
Are you expecting a factual answer, neuronic? I don't see how I'm supposed to be able to provide one.
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Post by neuronic on Jul 23, 2021 20:30:35 GMT
Did mikeofrivia label the package correctly? If the answer is yes, the loss of the package is not his fault and the loss should be shared. If the answer is no, it's his fault and he should cover the loss.
Consider the following:
1) I haven't seen the package, so I cannot say if mikeofrivia labeled it correctly. 2) USPS has a picture of the printed label with barcode that shows the incorrect address. mikeofrivia said that he wrote the To address in sharpie on the box. 3) There is no evidence that mikeofrivia either correctly or incorrectly labeled the box. 4) I can't get more evidence or really anything, because mikeofrivia is wholly ignoring me.
I look at it like this. If I'd bought something from a shop and there was a mistake with the shipping label that prevented me from receiving the item I bought, I wouldn't just say "oh well, semprini happens, guess I'm out my money." Nor would I expect to share the loss with the shop. I'd expect them to either refund me the money, or send me a replacement item. I don't see how this is fundamentally any different than that hypothetical situation, but I will always allow the possibility that I'm incorrect.
So that's different. From your initial post I read you both agreed that the USPS worker messed up the address transfer. From your reply now I read you seem to not believe that mikeofrivia did label it correctly, so of course your claim is to get refunded, and rightfully so...
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Post by alientude on Jul 23, 2021 20:33:45 GMT
I agreed with mikeofrivia that it makes sense that they messed up the address transfer from his hand written form to the printed label. Since I've never seen the package, I can't say that it's exactly what happened. In any case, I believe he should have checked the label USPS generated, and corrected the mistake then, if that is what happened. I know I always check the printed labels and take pictures of them to be ultra sure I've done everything I can to make things go correctly.
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Post by Arthur Dayne on Jul 23, 2021 20:40:47 GMT
A picture of the label showing the correct shipping address on the package is what mikeofrivia needed to do as the shipper in this deal. Otherwise it's all he said/she said/post office said/someone on forum said blah blah mikeofrivia passing the buck bullsemprini.
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Post by neuronic on Jul 23, 2021 20:42:46 GMT
Doesn't the person receiving an USPS package have to sign in for it? It baffles me that the package is declared lost when USPS clearly verifies a (faulty) receiving address and claims the package has been delivered correctly...
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Post by paulmuaddib on Jul 23, 2021 21:09:35 GMT
Doesn't the person receiving an USPS package have to sign in for it? It baffles me that the package is declared lost when USPS clearly verifies a (faulty) receiving address and claims the package has been delivered correctly... Packages don’t always have to be signed for unless a certain amount of insurance is bought or it is specifically requested.
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Kane Shen
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Post by Kane Shen on Jul 23, 2021 21:20:43 GMT
The question is then should the shipper of a merchandise subject to a transaction be held liable when he fails to verify the receiver's address on the printed label created by a courier service and also fails to send a photo to the receiver for a chance to rectify any mistake.
I should the answer is decidedly yes.
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Post by alientude on Jul 23, 2021 23:31:30 GMT
USPS doesn't require a signature by default - you have to request it (at an increased cost, I believe).
Also, when you say "declared lost," to me that sounds like you're implying that's USPS's attitude. If not, I apologize for the misinterpretation. But if so, that's not USPS's position. Their position that the package was delivered to the address on the label, so they did their job perfectly. They really do not care at all that the address on the label was incorrect (possibly because of their own mistake).
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Post by Eric Bergeron on Jul 24, 2021 1:10:58 GMT
Alientude, you want to involve the postal inspectors, I am not sure how much information you have shared with the post office on what was "in" the package, but the postal inspectors are the "police" force of the USPS, if anything happens theft wise etc.. they are the ones who investigate anything that is stolen in the mail. I know you said you went down and talked to them in person but did you actually open up a claim? If not you should do that as that keeps a written record and they have to follow up and not shue you away, and you can escalate it up the chain to even a district level.
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