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Post by elbufo on Jul 12, 2021 23:06:56 GMT
Man I love folks of few words...Great way to share information. I'll start...20 years military. Awarded multiple marksman medals Squadron armorer and general shooter. Been around it a while...Now of course, none of this can be proven. But hey...
Your turn!
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tera
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Post by tera on Jul 12, 2021 23:16:10 GMT
I think to use a laser or not is one of those debates that never gets settled.
I don't use lasers, personally, as I train on sights. I find new shooters go to lasers thinking they are easier, but with poor follow-through you can end up chasing a dot (that could be aiming high into the sky and, therefore, invisible to you. Lasers for the well trained would be fine, but unless you have a reason for needing one (back-up for a magnified optic, NVGs, or what-not) sticking with your irons works just fine.
That said, I am a huge fan of weapon mounted lights (as long as they are so many lumens they are painful to look in the general direction of). That is also very controversial, but there is also the question of how you train with weapon lights. An ex-Marine friend of mine introduced me to the flash-and-move method, for example.
The accessory debate is truly never-ending.
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Post by elbufo on Jul 12, 2021 23:24:27 GMT
Terra, think of it this way...Its dark, you can't see your sights (unless you are running tritiums). You just got knocked down and cant get a good sight picture. Lasers are never a good substitute for good sight discipline. But they are an edge when needed. Oh, and they can be used as a short distance flashlight to allow you to see the ground in front of yourself so you don't step in or on it. Even my blob of a dog has learned to move when the red spot appears, They also work great for practicing point and shoot. Using a laser requires practice as does every thing else in the firearms game.
Edit: PLEASE ACCEPT MY HUMBLE APOLOGIES for attributing the cz and 1911 comment to Lord Newport. Credit should go to whom it is due!
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Post by Lord Newport on Jul 13, 2021 0:15:33 GMT
^ Very true. You don't need a light trigger, just a GOOD trigger. The only light-ish trigger I have is a tuned down accutrigger on Savage. It has a little creep, but 1/2 MOA is good enough for me. Haven't bothered upgrading to a better trigger. I thought we were taking about combat pistols. Rifles are a completely different story. |
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Post by nerdthenord on Jul 13, 2021 0:40:59 GMT
Anyway....I hope to get some shooting footage of the Glock posted this week. It was flooding all last week so I couldn't get to the range.
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Post by unistat76 on Jul 13, 2021 1:16:20 GMT
I'll weigh in a bit. Congrats on your new Glock! I've been carrying one for about a decade, and it's what I use at work. I guess you might say I'm comfortable with it. They are a bit soul-less though, lol.
Lasers. They are interesting to shoot with. I kind of recommend everyone try it at least once or twice.
Most people who shoot only a moderate amount but could be called "decent" are somewhat surprised by how much the laser shows their PoA wibbles and wobbles on the target. This can be instructive, if you learn the right lessons from it.
I don't have any on my guns, but my wife's little S&W .380 has an integral laser sight. She rarely uses it at the range, it's a little futsy to turn on.
Anyway, congrats again. If you're going to conceal carry, go ahead and spend money on a good belt and holster. You'll end up buying quality in the long run, might as well skip buying the cheap stuff (many if us don't and have a box of garbage holsters as a result.)
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Post by Lord Newport on Jul 13, 2021 1:24:39 GMT
Man I love folks of few words...Great way to share information. I'll start...20 years military. Awarded multiple marksman medals Squadron armorer and general shooter. Been around it a while...Now of course, none of this can be proven. But hey... Your turn! Squadron? Air Force Special Warfare or PJ? My military experience didn't really involve small arms. USNR ultimately SWO qualified. I did earn sharpshooter pistol qualification while in NROTC. Picked up marksmanship rifle during my 3 years of active duty. Only interacted with small arms (pistols) on duty while overseeing armed watches on the quarterdeck (in port). Sought out extensive small arms tactical training over the last 30 years with several tactical training schools including Gunsite Ranch (back when Col. Cooper was still involved), Thunder Ranch (Texas) and Direct Action Group in Southern California. I have been competing in IPSC/USPSA/IDPA competitions for over 20 years. Shot the last two Soldier of Fortune 3 gun competitions in LV. Knew and trained with Michael Harries for several years in his Desert Marksman program. Typically shoot two to three IDPA matches a month for the last six years. IDPA classified expert and IDPA qualified Range Safety officer. I too have been around it for a while. |
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Post by nerdthenord on Jul 13, 2021 1:26:56 GMT
I'll weigh in a bit. Congrats on your new Glock! I've been carrying one for about a decade, and it's what I use at work. I guess you might say I'm comfortable with it. They are a bit soul-less though, lol. Lasers. They are interesting to shoot with. I kind of recommend everyone try it at least once or twice. Most people who shoot only a moderate amount but could be called "decent" are somewhat surprised by how much the laser shows their PoA wibbles and wobbles on the target. This can be instructive, if you learn the right lessons from it. I don't have any on my guns, but my wife's little S&W .380 has an integral laser sight. She rarely uses it at the range, it's a little futsy to turn on. Anyway, congrats again. If you're going to conceal carry, go ahead and spend money on a good belt and holster. You'll end up buying quality in the long run, might as well skip buying the cheap stuff (many if us don't and have a box of garbage holsters as a result.) Yeah, I’m in Texas so come September 1st I can open carry it most places. Doubt I will very often but a good holster is definitely a must. Speaking of boxes of garbage holsters, I have no less than three condor nylon holsters for airsoft, only one of which I actually like lol. The Tornado isn’t bad for the price, and fits my Glock and a magazine well, but I can definitely do better later on. Here’s me in my airsoft getup but with the Glock holstered. Attachments:
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tera
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Post by tera on Jul 13, 2021 1:27:16 GMT
Terra, think of it this way...Its dark, you can't see your sights (unless you are running tritiums). You just got knocked down and cant get a good sight picture. Lasers are never a good substitute for good sight discipline. But they are an edge when needed. Oh, and they can be used as a short distance flashlight to allow you to see the ground in front of yourself so you don't step in or on it. Even my blob of a dog has learned to move when the red spot appears, They also work great for practicing point and shoot. Using a laser requires practice as does every thing else in the firearms game. Edit: PLEASE ACCEPT MY HUMBLE APOLOGIES for attributing the cz and 1911 comment to Lord Newport. Credit should go to whom it is due! This is why accessory discussions are interesting. Ultimately, run what works for you. The fun thing here is I view this exact scenario as an argument for weapon light over laser. We are both right, as long as we both train with the tools we use. 1) To see your sights (tritium not withstanding) they need to have a sufficiently lit backdrop, very true. In a defensive scenario, my backdrop is a threat... maybe? If I can't see the target well enough to see my sights, can I verify it is really a threat and not a bystander, family member etc? Prosecutors and civil suit lawyers love that scenario. 2) If I just got knocked down, I can either point-shoot with the tight beam of the weapon light as a guide OR they are so close I can't see the beam. In that case, the protruding bezel of mounted light in contact with someone grappling you can verify you are on target, without pushing your slide out of battery. If I am on the ground and the threat is far away, I need to get OFF the ground, and can use the light to determine if deadly force is required at any point. 3. The laser as flashlight method telegraphs your location, which is usually the strongest criticism of using weapon lights. That's why I stick with 800 Lumens and up. Business grade projectors start at 8-900 Lumens. Try staring straight into a projector and trying to aim at it. Now add the flash-and-move method and the threat is both night-blind and with outdated information of your location. 4. If it's that dark, one muzzle-flash is enough to jack up your nightvision. This is where additional illumination is helpful. Again, you do you. I just enjoy hearing how different people train for the same scenarios. To keep this on-topic, the Glock 19 Gen 5 can host light, laser, or both on the forward rail amd there is an ever increasing market of holsters designed to accommodate your chosen combo. It helps to stick with name brand accessories for maximum options, though. Streamlight and Crimson Trace being the big two. EDIT: OH, yes, I LOVE lasers in the training environment. You can really show people flinch, impact of improper grip and/or trigger finger placement, and how DANGEROUS even the slightest deviation of the muzzle is to anything/anyone downrange. Great for teaching muzzle discipline. If you like keeping a laser once you have developed competency, I see no real harm. I just also don't know if there is real benefit. |
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Post by Lord Newport on Jul 13, 2021 1:28:45 GMT
I'll weigh in a bit. Congrats on your new Glock! I've been carrying one for about a decade, and it's what I use at work. I guess you might say I'm comfortable with it. They are a bit soul-less though, lol. Lasers. They are interesting to shoot with. I kind of recommend everyone try it at least once or twice. Most people who shoot only a moderate amount but could be called "decent" are somewhat surprised by how much the laser shows their PoA wibbles and wobbles on the target. This can be instructive, if you learn the right lessons from it. I don't have any on my guns, but my wife's little S&W .380 has an integral laser sight. She rarely uses it at the range, it's a little futsy to turn on. Anyway, congrats again. If you're going to conceal carry, go ahead and spend money on a good belt and holster. You'll end up buying quality in the long run, might as well skip buying the cheap stuff (many if us don't and have a box of garbage holsters as a result.) Yeah, I’m in Texas so come September 1st I can open carry it most places. Doubt I will very often but a good holster is definitely a must. Speaking of boxes of garbage holsters, I have no less than three condor nylon holsters for airsoft, only to me of which I actually like lol. The Tornado isn’t bad for the price, and fits my Glock and a magazine well, but I can definitely do better later on. Here’s me in my airsoft getup but with the Glock holstered. I have a three drawer filing cabinet full of holsters slings and accessories it seemed a good idea at the time at a gun show or online that in actual use were found to be wanting. |
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Post by nerdthenord on Jul 13, 2021 1:32:11 GMT
And yeah, run what works for you is the most important rule for weapon systems, accessories included. I will likely get a small light for the Glock eventually, as that seems the better choice for my needs than a laser, but there is no denying a proper laser that holds zero can be a lifesaver. I just don't want too many gadgets that can snag on the draw.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jul 13, 2021 1:35:04 GMT
And yeah, run what works for you is the most important rule for weapon systems, accessories included. I will likely get a small light for the Glock eventually, as that seems the better choice for my needs than a laser, but there is no denying a proper laser that holds zero can be a lifesaver. I just don't want too many gadgets that can snag on the draw. Proper professional tactical training that leads to muscle memory development is the real lifesaver. Don't even think that you were qualified and prepared to engage in a lethal force confrontation without hands on/in person live fire professional training. Before you even spend all that money on accessories and equipment, get some professional training and develop the basic skill set and actually figure out through experience what accessories you need and want. |
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tera
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Post by tera on Jul 13, 2021 1:51:52 GMT
And yeah, run what works for you is the most important rule for weapon systems, accessories included. I will likely get a small light for the Glock eventually, as that seems the better choice for my needs than a laser, but there is no denying a proper laser that holds zero can be a lifesaver. I just don't want too many gadgets that can snag on the draw. Proper professional tactical training that leads to muscle memory development is the real lifesaver. Don't even think that you were qualified and prepared to engage in a lethal force confrontation without hands on/in person live fire professional training. Before you even spend all that money on accessories and equipment, get some professional training and develop the basic skill set and actually figure out through experience what accessories you need and want. ^ Sage advice here. You can't accessorize your way to marksmanship. Hands on training is irreplaceable. Personally, I have been unimpressed by NRA programs. Look for well known, experienced trainers. Many of my friends went to Blackwater before it got controversial. |
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Post by nerdthenord on Jul 13, 2021 1:58:10 GMT
Yeah, gadgets and such are not a substitute for actual training. I know how to shoot targets, but combat? That’s a totally different beast that I freely admit I have zero experience with, and hope I never have to. Of course I didn’t buy the pistol just to shoot targets. I’d buy an airsoft one if I just wanted a toy. It’s for defense.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jul 13, 2021 5:53:01 GMT
Yeah, gadgets and such are not a substitute for actual training. I know how to shoot targets, but combat? That’s a totally different beast that I freely admit I have zero experience with, and hope I never have to. Of course I didn’t buy the pistol just to shoot targets. I’d buy an airsoft one if I just wanted a toy. It’s for defense. Tactical handgun training is not about "battlefield combat" but simply "learning to fight with your handgun". |
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Post by elbufo on Jul 13, 2021 17:37:10 GMT
Lord Newport... Now we are getting somewhere. You got me beat hands down on training. I look forward to bantering with you.
On the subject of triggers...Every one has preferences. I like about 3lbs on a general purpose hand gun. On a "combat" gun I go a little heavier, about 5 pounds (none are striker fired). Crisp and smooth are defiantly a big plus. I also have a couple of trainers with trigger pulls that feels like sand got in the mechanism just to give new shooters a chance to get a feel for "quality" and if they happen to drop them I don't cry..
On the subject of gadgets...We must include sights, as the first literal hand cannons were just a tube open on one end with a touch hole at the other. There is a big difference between tacti-cool and an honest piece of gear. All of my hand guns are old school pre-rail so mounting a light is pretty much a no go, but you can bet that when things go bump in the night I have a shurefire in hand.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jul 13, 2021 18:04:16 GMT
Lord Newport... Now we are getting somewhere. You got me beat hands down on training. I look forward to bantering with you. On the subject of triggers...Every one has preferences. I like about 3lbs on a general purpose hand gun. On a "combat" gun I go a little heavier, about 5 pounds (none are striker fired). Crisp and smooth are defiantly a big plus. I also have a couple of trainers with trigger pulls that feels like sand got in the mechanism just to give new shooters a chance to get a feel for "quality" and if they happen to drop them I don't cry.. On the subject of gadgets...We must include sights, as the first literal hand cannons were just a tube open on one end with a touch hole at the other. There is a big difference between tacti-cool and an honest piece of gear. All of my hand guns are old school pre-rail so mounting a light is pretty much a no go, but you can bet that when things go bump in the night I have a shurefire in hand. Tritium night sights for carry guns and home defense gun Flat black sights for daylight training / completition Lights...Lower power (170 lumens) Surefire on home defense pistol Lasers...IMHO worthless unless mounted on a sub gun / SBR for entry work by a team It has been my observation that lasers are gimmicks bought by people trying to replace marksmanship skills and training with "stuff". Fully 99% of the shooters with lasers that I see at indoor ranges are clowns making pistol targets look like shotgun targets at ranges of 21 feet or less! The only positive aspect of lasers mounted on pistols I have found is that it highlights the soup sandwiches with piss poor muzzle control to be avoided at an indoor public shooting range. Triggers...Box stock on everything but a 1911. NOTHING less than 3 pounds. As I said earlier light triggers are the hiding place of people who have not mastered trigger control and basic marksmanship skills. For most pistol shooters, all a light trigger does is allow the gun to go off halfway thru their flinch instead of all the way thru it..giving them the false impression the fun is "more accurate", causing them to "think" they are better shooters. So in that regard, light triggers will improve groups for most shooters but will never solve the low left/right issue that most of them have. |
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Post by tommyh on Jul 13, 2021 18:29:06 GMT
Lord Newport...I have a S&W J frame in 357, that has an exceedingly light trigger in single action mode. With it you damn well better have EXACTING trigger control. Breathe wrong and it will go bang, ready or not. Been packing it for 25 years. There was a large learning curve. It is a definite "keep the pressure of your booger hook off it until you are ready to shoot" kinda hand gun! Double action is is smooth and in the 3 pound range. Stiff triggers apply torque to your weapon which will cause it to cant, and open up your groups. Here is where trigger control comes in...Better you are, better your groups. Perhaps it should be called torque control. IMHO if you are pulling over 3 lbs, have some work done or upgrade the action. You will be happy! Hear hear on the CZ 75. My favorite 9mm...cept CT quit making laser grips for it... Now the 1911 (with laser grips of course) that's a real gun. when you run out of ammo, it makes for a good bludgeoning device. OP...I highly recommend a lazer. I would not carry a primary defense hand gun without one. I have a CT mounted on the smith. Not a single glitch in 15+ years. This is even after a couple of accidental swimming lessons. I disagree ... I tend to agree with Lord Newport. In my experience, as long as you have a good quality trigger, heavier weight is (generally) a non-issue. Stiff triggers only apply torque if you aren't pulling straight back. I also steer clear of lasers, as I think they reinforce the poor habit of not using your irons and focusing on the target (if you run a slide-ride red dot, that's a non-issue). They don't work well as flashlights (just get a real flashlight), and re: shooting from compromised positions, if you have time to steady a laser, you have time to use your sights, and if you don't, you're spraying bullets wildly. Also, I'm a little confused about the J frame here. A DA pull at 3lbs? That's lighter than my Staccato P's trigger. |
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Post by tommyh on Jul 13, 2021 18:53:26 GMT
Sights...Tritium night sights for carry guns and home defense gun Flat black sights for daylight training / completition Lights...Lower power (170 lumens) Surefire on home defense pistol Lasers...IMHO worthless unless mounted on a sub gun / SBR for entry work by a team It has been my observation that lasers are gimmicks bought by people trying to replace marksmanship shills and training with "stuff". Fully 99% of the shooters I see at indoor ranges are clowns making pistol targets look like shotgun targets at ranges of 21 feet or less! The only positive aspect of lasers mounted on pistols I have found is that it highlights the soup sandwiches with piss poor muzzle control to be avoided at an indoor public shooting range. Triggers...Box stock on everything but a 1911. NOTHING less than 3 pounds. As I said earlier light triggers are the hiding place of people who have not mastered sugar control and basic marksmanship skills. For most pistol shooters, all a light trigger does is allow the gun to go off halfway thru their flinch instead of all the way thru it..giving them the false impression the fun is "more accurate", causing them to "think" they are better shooters. So in that regard, light triggers will improve groups for most shooters but will never solve the low left/right issue that most of them have. You have more training and experience than I do, but I thought I'd drop my 2 cents. SightsRed dots for everything. Pick something tough with a great battery life like a Holosun or Trijicon. Only one thing to worry about, rather than a front/rear sight combo, and allows for threat focus while maintaining a higher degree of accuracy. Always run backup cowitness irons as well. I find tritium to not be very helpful because if it's dark enough to see the tritium, I probably can't see the threat. Flat black irons are fine by me, but I prefer a fiber front and black rear. LightsDepends on the circumstances. I've blinded myself with a weapon light just from glare off a white wall, so there can be such a thing as too much light. Generally speaking, I think as long as a light can umbrella-light a room, it's good to go for me. Requirement on any defensive weapon for me; positive target identification is essential. Could be foregone on a carry gun if you are certain that you're never going to be in a dark environment, e.g., running to the supermarket at 2 p.m. for milk, but I'd rather just have it and not worry about it. LasersMakes sense under NODs. Otherwise, use your sights. They do look cool, though. TriggersAgree. Leave em alone. |
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Post by howler on Jul 13, 2021 21:33:16 GMT
Sights...Tritium night sights for carry guns and home defense gun Flat black sights for daylight training / completition Lights...Lower power (170 lumens) Surefire on home defense pistol Lasers...IMHO worthless unless mounted on a sub gun / SBR for entry work by a team It has been my observation that lasers are gimmicks bought by people trying to replace marksmanship shills and training with "stuff". Fully 99% of the shooters I see at indoor ranges are clowns making pistol targets look like shotgun targets at ranges of 21 feet or less! The only positive aspect of lasers mounted on pistols I have found is that it highlights the soup sandwiches with piss poor muzzle control to be avoided at an indoor public shooting range. Triggers...Box stock on everything but a 1911. NOTHING less than 3 pounds. As I said earlier light triggers are the hiding place of people who have not mastered sugar control and basic marksmanship skills. For most pistol shooters, all a light trigger does is allow the gun to go off halfway thru their flinch instead of all the way thru it..giving them the false impression the fun is "more accurate", causing them to "think" they are better shooters. So in that regard, light triggers will improve groups for most shooters but will never solve the low left/right issue that most of them have. You have more training and experience than I do, but I thought I'd drop my 2 cents. SightsRed dots for everything. Pick something tough with a great battery life like a Holosun or Trijicon. Only one thing to worry about, rather than a front/rear sight combo, and allows for threat focus while maintaining a higher degree of accuracy. Always run backup cowitness irons as well. I find tritium to not be very helpful because if it's dark enough to see the tritium, I probably can't see the threat. Flat black irons are fine by me, but I prefer a fiber front and black rear. LightsDepends on the circumstances. I've blinded myself with a weapon light just from glare off a white wall, so there can be such a thing as too much light. Generally speaking, I think as long as a light can umbrella-light a room, it's good to go for me. Requirement on any defensive weapon for me; positive target identification is essential. Could be foregone on a carry gun if you are certain that you're never going to be in a dark environment, e.g., running to the supermarket at 2 p.m. for milk, but I'd rather just have it and not worry about it. LasersMakes sense under NODs. Otherwise, use your sights. They do look cool, though. TriggersAgree. Leave em alone. Regarding Red Dots, this is a subject I would ask all involved in this thread as it seems to be "THE" thing on pistols in the last few years what with all the major companies starting to offer OR (Optics Ready) cutouts on the slides. What say you all, is it a game changer (co-witness with irons)? BTW, I'm in the camp of having a light separate from the firearm. |
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