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Post by dotrom on Jun 28, 2021 18:14:45 GMT
I have a swords on order and I needed something to hold me over, something to feed the addiction. After watching Skallagrim's review and putting out for some feedback in the FB SBG realm, I decided to order Ronin's Euro #2. It was packaged in a box within a box. The inner box had a few foam bracers, but the inner box itself was bouncing around the larger box with nothing to hold it down. No visible damage I could tell, and it seemed to be efficient enough. The blade was fine, but I was immediately drawn to the crookedness of the hilt region. No attention to the blade will be given here. The guard was visibly crooked to the point of being defective--see for yourself. This was the big flaw. Could spot it right away and from anywhere in the room. The grip was fine. The wrap coils are a bit thick, which is aesthetically displeasing up close. The seam that others seemed to have a problem with was not an issue for me. I couldn't tell if the pommel was set off centre, or if I was visually deceived by the leather wrap, but it certainly looked quite off. The finish on the interior of the circular pommel was not wonderful--it had the same appearance as spray painted concrete, leaving me rather unimpressed. The fix is a coin, a Dremel, etc. The peen was impressively smooth. The scabbard was low quality leather: thin, stiff, and unimpressive. The buckles were unimpressive also. I don't expect anything great at this price point as scabbards go, so this is par, but it reinforces a mental note that the 'added value of a scabbard' only applies to quality scabbards. This is for taking the sword outside to cut and not marking up the house in transition, but I wouldn't wear it anywhere. The guard was the big issue. It was so off that this sword belongs in their scratch and dent sale. I reached out to Ronin and told them I would either take a partial refund to keep it at a scratch/dent price, or I would send it back. I regretted sending that email because I really didn't want to keep the sword, I would be embarrassed to hang it or break it out. I wanted a full refund, and I said that it was not fair to charge a 20% restocking fee for a defective sword, which is $70 on a $350 sword. Nobody should be restocking this sword as-is, and I shouldn't have to pay for receiving a defective product. This wasn't a change of heart or buyer's remorse, this was a bad product. Chris at RK agreed to take it back at 100%. Here is the catch, I have to pay for shipping. It's probably around $40-50. (**Turned out to be $43 or so**) I'm a principle of the matter guy, and so I take issue with this for the same reasons I took issue with the restocking fee. If RK's quality guy needs glasses, why do I lose money? Isn't that the risk Chris/RK takes when reselling a manufactured product? I don't know what the industry norms are around this, and frankly I don't care. I've owned a business, I've run a few departments over the years, and I am extremely familiar with manufacturing in both production and sales/marketing/distribution. Some days you make mistakes, and on those days or in those instances you lose money to keep your integrity. Integrity maintenance is part of overhead in a good businesses model. Chris would like to profit from the sale, but he would like you to share in his risk apparently. I objected, and Chris forwarded me a link to the shipping policy. Having a bad policy written down does not validate it---bad policies are everywhere. But I get it--- this is the 'contract I signed' when I agreed to purchase from RK, because the policy is posted. Fine, but the message is that RK is selling swords made overseas and they want their consumers to share in the risk. The de facto implication is that they don't stand behind the product, or that buying RK is a risk in and of itself? I will eat the cost of shipping and pay $40 for a bad experience, but I'll never buy another RK again. And when people ask for recommendations on products, I will chime in with some pictures. I'll do to RK what ya'll do to DSA!
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 28, 2021 20:32:37 GMT
Strange... but this looks really not OK. But - at least in my case - my record with Ronin Katana runs at 4 good to 1 lemon (and that was a Katana)... while our DSA record sits high in the sky with 3 good to 7 lemons (including three catastrophic failures, if i may use this term)! And i have the little feeling the records of quite some other guys would read similarly. So... you MIGHT be overreacting here a little bit... because of ONE sword? You aint seen nothing yet... you will enounter this type of disappointment many, many more times. We encountered it with Albion, Arms & Armor, LOTS of DSA, LOTS of Windlass, LOTS of Hanwei. Anyway, i would like to see that RK Chris guy make a statement on this matter.
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Post by dotrom on Jun 28, 2021 20:49:25 GMT
Me too. After returning from the post office with a $50 receipt (*that included tape and bubble wrap*), I've sought clarification on the matter: is it RK's policy to make customers pay for shipping if the product is defective. Not buyer's remorse-- defective. Are you a sword company at that sells your swords, or are you a brand-distribution company that buys swords and reships them to people under your brand, that will only reimburse what you can get reimbursed for from your supplier? You can of course be a sword company that sells swords purchased from a supplier, but if you don't stand behind your product then you're just a brand-distribution company. I'm 1 for 1 with DSA. Genuinely impressed with their type X (which is actually an XII)
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 28, 2021 21:01:54 GMT
Me too. After returning from the post office with a $50 receipt, I've sought clarification on the matter: is it RK's policy to make customers pay for shipping if the product is defective. Not buyer's remorse-- defective. Are you a sword company at that sells your swords, or are you a brand-distribution company that buys swords and reships them to people under your brand, that will only reimburse what you can get reimbursed for from your supplier? You can of course be a sword company that sells swords purchased from a supplier, but if you don't stand behind your product then you're just a brand-distribution company. I'm 1 for 1 with DSA. Genuinely impressed with their type X. I hope you do realize that DSA are not forging the blades that they sell...
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Post by dotrom on Jun 28, 2021 21:28:15 GMT
I hope you do realize that DSA are not forging the blades that they sell... I'm under the impression that they're made somewhere in Quebec...?
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Post by joe_meadmaker on Jun 29, 2021 0:12:38 GMT
Was there an offer to replace the sword? Just curious if that came up in your communication with them.
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 29, 2021 4:43:30 GMT
I hope you do realize that DSA are not forging the blades that they sell... I'm under the impression that they're made somewhere in Quebec...? Thats the blatant lie we hear for over 10 years now... it is pretty much obvious -pretty much circumstantial evidence over the years- that DSA only ASSEMBLES the swords in their "workshop" (thats enough to call them "made in canada", by the way, legally); there were interesting freight papers from India, chinese letters/symbols on tangs, and most typical: the "batch availability" of DSA swords. Not to speak of the absolute impossibility to completely manufacture a sword a that price level the ways they describe it in a country like Canada, or USA, or Germany. And we always hear nice stories from the Azzman. Dont get me wrong, i have no problem with swords/blades from India; Windlass, Balaur Arms... decent stuff. But why the cheating? Now add that history to the failures we encountered...
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Post by Student of Sword on Jun 29, 2021 13:34:23 GMT
DSA offered no documentary proof that their products were manufactured in Canada. It is super easy to prove, there is government export-import certification that say " "Product of Canada" (not "Made in Canada," "Made in Canada" simply mean assemble in Canada.) They never had it. Their business license is not manufacturing license, but import and export.
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Post by snubnoze on Jun 29, 2021 15:46:51 GMT
Bummer. I've only had one experience with RK with the #7 Longsword and it was a very good experience. No issues with the construction. Sure, the scabbard and grip aren't the highest quality, but certainly functional and in line with this price range. The only thing that really annoyed me was all of the waxy material built up inside the scabbard that would smear on the blade. I spent a good 3 days off and on using a coat hanger and constantly drawing the sword to remove that waxy material. The edge needed a bit of work as well but that's pretty typical.
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Post by dotrom on Jun 29, 2021 17:15:34 GMT
Was there an offer to replace the sword? Just curious if that came up in your communication with them. No it did not. I would presumably be responsible for the original shipping ($35), the return shipping (*$43 or so*), and the shipping the second time around (another $35). If that one came defective, I am out $170 and no sword. I shouldn't have to assume risk if I'm not the one profiting.
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Post by dotrom on Jun 29, 2021 17:25:48 GMT
I'm under the impression that they're made somewhere in Quebec...? Thats the blatant lie we hear for over 10 years now... it is pretty much obvious -pretty much circumstantial evidence over the years- that DSA only ASSEMBLES the swords in their "workshop" (thats enough to call them "made in canada", by the way, legally); there were interesting freight papers from India, chinese letters/symbols on tangs, and most typical: the "batch availability" of DSA swords. Not to speak of the absolute impossibility to completely manufacture a sword a that price level the ways they describe it in a country like Canada, or USA, or Germany. And we always hear nice stories from the Azzman. Dont get me wrong, i have no problem with swords/blades from India; Windlass, Balaur Arms... decent stuff. But why the cheating? Now add that history to the failures we encountered... That's interesting. I've done quite a bit of work with manufacturing sales, and I would offer the following: I did business with a kitchen cabinet company that acquired all their finished parts from China, but the cabinets were physically ssembled and shipped at USA locations. At one point they even started finishing the cabinets in certain USA locations. They were 'Made in China', legally speaking, and struggled to shake that stigma---despite the fact that they employed hundreds of American assembly folks and CSRs. I have also done business with a Quebec-based cabinet manufacturer. I'm not sure how they do it, but they made all products in house on state of the art machinery, they shipped quality products at a much better price than comparable American cabinet manufacturers, and they paid their employees well. They also did ski manufacturing start up inside the factory. One can make the case that they have easy access to lumber and thus less input overhead. In terms of swords, however, Canadians also have a vast international mining presence--its the only time you hear the word 'Canadian imperialism' come up-- so it stands to reason that DSA can likely acquire metals competitively. These are just my experiences. I live about 80 miles from DSA, and when they open the border I plan on visiting and seeing what I can see.
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Post by dotrom on Jun 29, 2021 17:46:12 GMT
DSA offered no documentary proof that their products were manufactured in Canada. It is super easy to prove, there is government export-import certification that say " "Product of Canada" (not "Made in Canada," "Made in Canada" simply mean assemble in Canada.) They never had it. Their business license is not manufacturing license, but import and export. I'd be more than willing to look at that. With no condescension whatsoever, I would ask how well versed are you on that specific wording of Canadian business law? Does a product need to be wholly Canadian-sourced to be "Made in Canada," or is there a percentage/scale? I'm assuming the latter. If my assumption is correct, the blade is but one of the components going out the door here: hilt components, scabbard and its components, etc. All that could muddy the waters. Let's say they do forge their own blades with Chinese steel-- perhaps imported raw materials makes obtaining the "Made in Canada" impossible. I see that pitchforks and torches come out whenever DSA comes up. In my recent experience, they've been accessible, accommodating, and expedient. Much of their catalogue is not to my taste, but they do get some things right and they do have a niche. One thing I was impressed by was that DSA included an inspection checklist with the sword, and it had the individual's name who conducted the inspection on it. Ronin doesn't do that, and they want you to send the sword back in the exact packaging they sent it in-- a box bouncing around inside a lightly padded box. Why? Likely because they want to get credited back from the actual manufacturer they use in China. Because, as I now know, they're not a sword company per se-- they are a brand/distributor that doesn't stand by the products they source. I did notice that Clyde Hollis's Kingdom of Arms has the same policy of not covering shipping. I can't imagine Clyde would not eat shipping on a legitimately defective product. I live nearby in Vermont, and when they reopen the border I will head up and check DSA's facility out.
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Post by Student of Sword on Jun 29, 2021 18:17:26 GMT
Steel are the cheapest cost of manufacturing. I would be shock if the steel is even 1 percent of cost for any sword manufacturer.
To use a “Made in Canada” claim, the last substantial transformation of the product must have occurred in Canada and, 51% or more of the total direct costs of producing or manufacturing the good must have been incurred in Canada.
To qualify for a “Product of Canada” claim, the last substantial transformation of the product must have occurred in Canada and, 98% or more of the total direct costs of producing or manufacturing the good must have been incurred in Canada.
According to the Guidelines, goods are “substantially transformed” where they undergo a fundamental change in form, appearance or nature such that the goods existing after the change are new and different goods from those existing before the change.
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Post by dotrom on Jun 29, 2021 19:25:24 GMT
Steel are the cheapest cost of manufacturing. I would be shock if the steel is even 1 percent of cost for any sword manufacturer. To use a “Made in Canada” claim, the last substantial transformation of the product must have occurred in Canada and, 51% or more of the total direct costs of producing or manufacturing the good must have been incurred in Canada. To qualify for a “Product of Canada” claim, the last substantial transformation of the product must have occurred in Canada and, 98% or more of the total direct costs of producing or manufacturing the good must have been incurred in Canada. According to the Guidelines, goods are “substantially transformed” where they undergo a fundamental change in form, appearance or nature such that the goods existing after the change are new and different goods from those existing before the change. 1% seems a touch hyperbolic, even when factoring in labour costs. I'd love to be proven wrong. I did see the 5199 importer license. My follow up curiosity is, can one have a 5199 for importing and another for manufacturing. Surely there are advantages to compartmentalising one's operations. (This is not part of the riddle of steel...) Nonetheless, I do not want my disdain for RK's service to play host to the quarterly DSA war thread. I've read some of those threads. I acknowledge and respect your disdain, and you mine.
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Post by Student of Sword on Jun 29, 2021 19:36:35 GMT
They don't have, or rather they haven't shown their manufacturing license.
To be honest, I have no issue with things made in China. My Iphone and MacBook are made in China.
In fact, Valiant Armoury swords used to be forged in China and assembled in Texas. They were awesome swords for their prices.
My issue is the bullsemprini.
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Post by Student of Sword on Jun 29, 2021 19:38:13 GMT
Citadel are made in Cambodia and they proudly stamped "Made in Cambodia." Their katana are in the $2K range. Good swords are good swords. Just don't bullsemprini.
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 30, 2021 4:44:38 GMT
Citadel are made in Cambodia and they proudly stamped "Made in Cambodia." Their katana are in the $2K range. Good swords are good swords. Just don't bullsemprini. THIS THIS!
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 30, 2021 4:44:54 GMT
They don't have, or rather they haven't shown their manufacturing license. To be honest, I have no issue with things made in China. My Iphone and MacBook are made in China. In fact, Valiant Armoury swords used to be forged in China and assembled in Texas. They were awesome swords for their prices. My issue is the bullsemprini. THIS!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 12:18:35 GMT
Holger at the keyboard again? Anyway, the DSA saga has been rinse and repeat for many years, including the occasional visits showing no large scale forging. Add to the facts that when Robert Marks was fronting for DSA in 2013/2014, he fully admitted on a deleted myArmoury thread that sword blanks were being brought in through the US. Not long after my mentioning DSA could produce a "Day in the Life" video, ala Albion, DSA did publish a video with a disclaimer it wasn't posted to prove anything. sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/41503/presenting-quot-life-darksword-armorySince this is a Ronin review, what say we leave DSA out of the context of this review? Not only is it repetitive narrations regarding DSA, it becomes rather apparent some would rather dwell on the DSA controversy than discuss Ronin as its own entity. I apologize if this is actually Dandelion (who entered saying she would only post in the classifieds, then got bored not posting elsewhere) but THESE EXAMPLES OF EXPRESSION read a whole lot more like Holger at both the SBG facebook group and myArmoury. Why not just release Holger to post, or re-register? There is no reason to have a double standard and allow him in the fb group and not here. At any rate, why let a review become a mosh pit? The same with classified ads. I typically don't post to reviews if I don't have something constructive to write. In this case, I can only write that SBG has not learned much in its 15-16 years of operation. Cheers GC
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Jun 30, 2021 14:28:30 GMT
So....let's leave DSA alone in this thread. I have a good experience with Ronin, I only have 1 sword, a #10, and I love it. Yes, the scabbard is trash nylon and plastic, but the sword is great. IMO, their policy seems to be something from the early 90's, and could use updating.
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