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Post by bradc on Jun 21, 2021 6:08:58 GMT
Pfffff.... you guys are going to have a lot of fun tearing apart my video. My only disclaimer and excuse this time is that I am horribly out of practice - in other words, I have no excuses. Again and again I will say it. I am VERY uncomfortable with the idea of newbies handling live blades. It really goes against everything I've ever been taught or experienced. Learning the movements under supervision with a simulator for a goodly amount of time is the only truly safe way to do it. And by a "goodly amount of time" I mean as long as it takes until your teacher decides you are coordinated enough and mature enough to handle a sharp. Until then, use a bokken, shinai, or even a PVC pipe will do. Anything but a sharp. In my mind being self taught to cut with a live blade is not much different than being a self taught electrical lineman. It'll probably be ok....but your first mistake will be your last. Nah I wouldn't tease you. I've seen a video you posted a while ago. You definitely know which way the pointy end goes Just to further the point on starting with a dull tool. I'm with RufusScorpius 100% and this isn't "do as I say, not as I do". I personally didn't start using a shinken in class until I had over 10 years of Iaido training. My style tends to avoid shinken in group practice, except for more experienced students, so I'm on the longer end of the spectrum vs some more cutting focused arts. I still have an Iaito and bokken, and if the classroom is full of beginners I will put the shinken away. I have been bitten by my sword, and cut a hole in a kimono gi just a few months ago. It only takes a split second of drifting attention for things to go wrong. A sword is a real weapon and it will go through your hand/arm before you notice (a student in my style went right through their bicep doing a tsuki with an Iaito...). That's part of the reason senior students will migrate to shinken. It keeps you from getting lazy, similar to how you always treat a firearm as though it could fire at any time, you can't let your attention drift. This leads to the danger of learning by video. Even running zoom classes (as our dojo is doing) it is hard to correct hand positioning, and all the little but important details. When you don't even have someone to check you, bad habits can build quickly. If you are really interested in learning how to use Japanese swords (JSA are also about more than that, but that's another topic), nothing can match an in person class. And I guarantee you, they won't start you with a sharp sword. A bokken is cheap and will let you get a feel for things before you start swinging a 3 ft razor around. Also OP. I don't think anyone here is the type to have who's better on video disagreement. However, it is fair to propose caution on self promoting people who are selling something. If you have noticed that it's hard to find video from traditional schools there is a reason behind that...
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Post by bradc on Jun 21, 2021 6:26:31 GMT
This! Many Iaido schools will go even longer before you can use a shinken in general class. A mishandled sword around other people is very dangerous. I have seen serious injuries from Iaito. Also to OP. In general be cautious around people who sell themselves as "Shihan" or "Grandmaster" etc... There are lots of people out there who like to give themselves fancy sounding titles and may not have anything real to back it up. Also, I saw Tenshin Ryu mentioned. All I will say on that is they tend to do really fast waza so please don't start with a sharp sword if that's what you want to do... Excellent advice in bradc's post. Shihan is not 7th dan in Toyama Ryu. 7th dan in Toyama Ryu is "Nanadan". When you read Dana Abbot's claims to have 7th dan rank in you must read it as a lawyer would; From dana's site: ( www.learnthesword.universitymartialarts.com/about-shihan-dana-abbott/ ) " I’m Shihan Dana Abbott and my expertise is in Kenjutsu where I have earned the rank of Shihan 7th Degree Black Belt."
Anyone who seriously studies the Japanese Sword Arts will tell you that Kenjutsu is an umbrella term for all (ko-budō) schools of Japanese swordsmanship. It is NOT a school itself. I have never heard of anyone awarding rank in "kenjitsu". It should also be noted that "shihan Dana Abbott" lists NO rank in any of the established lines of Toyama Ryu, Nakamura Ryu or any of the koryu schools either... just the "kenjutsu" ranking...and no mention of the Sensei who awarded that rank to him. Just some names of instructors studied under. Hmmmmm LMAO. From some web digging on various martial arts forums it looks like his ranks are likely in sports chanbara.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jun 21, 2021 9:30:00 GMT
Excellent advice in bradc's post. Shihan is not 7th dan in Toyama Ryu. 7th dan in Toyama Ryu is "Nanadan". When you read Dana Abbot's claims to have 7th dan rank in you must read it as a lawyer would; From dana's site: ( www.learnthesword.universitymartialarts.com/about-shihan-dana-abbott/ ) " I’m Shihan Dana Abbott and my expertise is in Kenjutsu where I have earned the rank of Shihan 7th Degree Black Belt."
Anyone who seriously studies the Japanese Sword Arts will tell you that Kenjutsu is an umbrella term for all (ko-budō) schools of Japanese swordsmanship. It is NOT a school itself. I have never heard of anyone awarding rank in "kenjitsu". It should also be noted that "shihan Dana Abbott" lists NO rank in any of the established lines of Toyama Ryu, Nakamura Ryu or any of the koryu schools either... just the "kenjutsu" ranking...and no mention of the Sensei who awarded that rank to him. Just some names of instructors studied under. Hmmmmm LMAO. From some web digging on various martial arts forums it looks like his ranks are likely in sports chanbara.Yeah, I came to that conclusion too...making him a fraud by claiming any real kenjutsu rank. One would think that he might have picked up some rank in one or more of the traditional schools, claiming: "I learned kendo/ iaido / kenjutsu and learned it well. These old school masters from the Showa era were extremely diligent in their teachings. For 14 years I ate, slept and lived my studies. All my training and certification is through the Japanese Department of Education and Recreation where everyone receives a fair and equal chance of learning Japanese swordsmanship." www.learnthesword.universitymartialarts.com/about-shihan-dana-abbott/ "Sports chanbara is an increasingly popular sport in Japan and abroad in which you try to whack your opponent using special air-filled soft sticks. It was invented in the 1970s by Tetsundo Tanabe"
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 21, 2021 11:21:32 GMT
BTW. The UNsharpened katana I currently have in the works from Hanbon is going to be used as my initial iaido. Smart idea. I use my iaito more than a sharpy. I know iaido is not iaito. The point is unsharpened. No pun.
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tera
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Post by tera on Jun 21, 2021 16:45:41 GMT
A side note about rank. I don't want to bury the fellow in OP's video without cause as I don't know him, but referring to oneself as "shihan" is, indeed, odd.
Unsurprisingly, the exact translation to English can vary somewhat but it usually refers to an instructor with high level of expertise. In the Martial Arts world, some systems incorporate it as a title conferred by their ranking system. Some arts use it only as an honorific to be conferred by informal consensus by other high ranking instructors. In those arts, you can be 10th Dan and still not be "shihan". My personal favorite attempt to bring the concept of "shihan" over to English is "teacher of teachers" (not a literal translation). This connotation implies that the instructor produces exceptional instructors in their lineage.
Now, back to the culture notes. Being yudansha in one art and having been an instructor, I could technically call myself "Sensei". On paperwork, correspondence from my ranking organisation, and in marketing others made, it's there, but I never "made" my students call me that. Some did, some used my name, I don't care. I did teach that, in our art, any yudansha could be addressed as Sensei and to please do so with visiting blackbelts or when visiting other schools. Our school was less formal, due to my Sensei's preferences.
So, unlike in the West where Doctors (of any field) call themselves Doctors at all times and get offended if you omit the title, it is not unheard of but still unusual for a Japanese Martial Arts instructor to refer to themselves as your-name-here Sensei. This is too boastful, and they should not have to announce their status. There is another word to convey that they are a teacher of sorts that is considered more humble, which escapes me at the moment because I've seldom heard that used because, again, someone's status is simply understood.
Likewise, as some of my former students have opened their own schools, I am technically a "teacher of teachers". I certainly will never call myself "shihan" and would politely dissuade anyone else from doing so. I have had the priviledge of attending seminars held by two shihan. I am NOT on their level.
So, in short, "shihan" is a title of honor signifying recognition as an unusually skilled instructor by one's peers, but it is not something one traditionally uses when referring to oneself. "Sensei" has become more common and less of an overstep, possibly because it easily and succinctly conveys "I teach martial arts" to Westerners.
Meaning, I agree with others to exercise caution when seeing someone market themselves personally as "Shihan" or "Grand Master". If they are giving seminars or are being talked about by others in their art, you will see their "shihan" honorific used by others, and that is normal and polite. If you hear anyone call themselves "shihan" in an actual martial arts community, everyone will probably bow and be polite but mentally that is a huge record scratch.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 21, 2021 16:50:54 GMT
"Sensei" and "sifu" and other honorariums that we consider exotic are interesting terms when taken into cultural context. Years ago when I was in China, the taxi cab drivers were "sifu" and pastry chefs were "sifu", auto mechanics were "sifu" and so forth. All it meant to them was "somebody good at their job". I think us Westerners tend to overthink the issue quite a lot. For them (at least among the Chinese I met) it was used in the same way we use the word "sir" when addressing others in a professional setting. And that isn't to say the meaning of the word hasn't changed for them either, perhaps it used to mean more than it does now, I don't really know for certain.
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Post by Student of Sword on Jun 21, 2021 17:42:06 GMT
If you want to cut things for the sake of cutting things, go cut things and figure out yourself. Don't overpower the cut. Don't cut over the leading leg. Control and know where to stop your blade. Be extra careful.
But if you want to actual learn swordsmanship. Don't follow the above advice. You will develop bad habits that will be very difficult to correct later. Don't learn remotely. Go to a reputable school and learn in person. There is no other way around learning swordsmanship but in person lesson.
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Post by randomnobody on Jun 21, 2021 18:54:35 GMT
Likewise, in Japan, teachers, doctors, and others are all "sensei" because the word basically means someone more educated than oneself, whom is trusted to share said education. (eg your teachers obviously teach, doctors will diagnose and prescribe treatments, etc)
Jisho has this for "shihan"
しはん 師範 common word Links Na-adjective, Noun 1. instructor; (fencing) teacher; model Wikipedia definition 2. Shihan- Title of "Master" is a Japanese Honorific Title, Expert License Certification used in Japanese martial arts for Master Level Instructors. The award of the Expert License Certification is if designated by the qualification by virtue of endorsement by the Association of Chief Instructors or Administration Head of an Association. SHOU-GOU 称号 is the masters title-system set up by the Dai-Nippon Butoku-kai (greater Japan Budo Encouragement Federation established in 1895 in Kyoto).
...so there's that.
I won't comment on anything else in this thread except to offer that it's already been mentioned that we have a very unused, training-dedicated subforum...
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Post by MichaelRS on Jun 21, 2021 19:08:37 GMT
BTW. The UNsharpened katana I currently have in the works from Hanbon is going to be used as my initial iaido. Smart idea. I use my iaito more than a sharpy. I know iaido is not iaito. The point is unsharpened. No pun. Oh sugar! That's what happens when I don't use my pneumonic to remember the difference. IaiTOol = katana and iaiDO is the thing or art that you DO with the TOol
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Post by Student of Sword on Jun 21, 2021 19:18:41 GMT
Why the bellow is specific for kendo, iaido, and karate, it usually apply to other Japanese arts as well. They are teaching rank, not skill rank. One can possibly have lower dan rank and higher teaching rank than another person.
KENDO AND IAIDO
Renshi: Those who have practiced and succeeded to show the principle of the sword and have good knowledge of kendō. Must hold 6-dan.
Kyōshi: Those who have mastered the principle of the sword and have excellent knowledge of kendō. Must hold 7-dan.
Hanshi: The highest of all. Those who have mastered and completed the principle of the sword, have outstanding knowledge of kendō and excellent personality with a virtue. Must hold 8-dan.
KARATE
Hanshi (範士): 8th dan for more than 2 years, older than 60
Kyoshi (教士): 6th dan and above for minimum 2 years, older than 50
Renshi (錬士): 5th dan and above for minimum 1 year, older than 4
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Post by MichaelRS on Jun 21, 2021 19:25:12 GMT
If you want to cut things for the sake of cutting things, go cut things and figure out yourself. Don't overpower the cut. Don't cut over the leading leg. Control and know where to stop your blade. Be extra careful. But if you want to actual learn swordsmanship. Don't follow the above advice. You will develop bad habits that will be very difficult to correct later. Don't learn remotely. Go to a reputable school and learn in person. There is no other way around learning swordsmanship but in person lesson. Thanks for that. No, I really do not intend to formally learn Japanese swordsmanship. Bad knees these days aside, it's not something I want to devote that much time, money and effort to. I mean it was fun back in college when I was foil fencing for three semesters. And I did well considering my standing in some regional collegiate competitions. But I'm pretty much over that much dedication to that sort of thing. Now I know that is not anywhere near the same as JSA, but the point is the time, effort and commitment. Yes, of course, I want to be safe, but beyond that I just want to have a little fun without deli slicing, or worse, any part of my body. I also wonder if a number of the schools, beit ANY kind of martial art, purposely keeps the student progress slow with what they CALL training and/or safety, but in reality is just a means to keep the revenue stream coming in by retarding the students natural ability to progress. What do you guys think?
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Post by bradc on Jun 21, 2021 19:28:04 GMT
"Sports chanbara is an increasingly popular sport in Japan and abroad in which you try to whack your opponent using special air-filled soft sticks. It was invented in the 1970s by Tetsundo Tanabe" To be fair sport chanbara is probably a lot of fun. I'm very tempted to pick up some chanbara swords for a future summer party....
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Post by bradc on Jun 21, 2021 19:34:22 GMT
I also wonder if a number of the schools, beit ANY kind of martial art, purposely keeps the student progress slow with what they CALL training and/or safety, but in reality is just a means to keep the revenue stream coming in by retarding the students natural ability to progress. What do you guys think? Nope. The school makes no money from your sword. Most earn nothing from your equipment/uniform. Most schools (reputable) don't really make much money. I know very few full time Sensei. Traditional martial arts are lifelong pursuits that go far deeper than the high level movements. This is partly why they aren't for everyone and some people move on after a few months or years. Rank is meaningless outside of your own school. Even within a school it isn't usually a major focus (rank will come with time, improving yourself is what's important first)
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Post by Student of Sword on Jun 21, 2021 19:53:47 GMT
No. Most JSA schools are nonprofit. Member dues are just to pay for rent and insurance. Insurance for dangerous activities are very expensive. For example, most kendo and iaido clubs within the US Kendo Federation will send you the club financial report every month for the sake of transparency. Not even sensei from Japan coming to the US for seminar get pay. Their hotel, flight, and food are paid for. That is it.
So no. No one is interested in slowing you down. Sharp sword is dangerous. I have cut myself during noto before. My previous sensei have cut himself doing noto as well.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jun 21, 2021 19:58:23 GMT
I also wonder if a number of the schools, beit ANY kind of martial art, purposely keeps the student progress slow with what they CALL training and/or safety, but in reality is just a means to keep the revenue stream coming in by retarding the students natural ability to progress. What do you guys think? Nope. The school makes no money from your sword. Most earn nothing from your equipment/uniform. Most schools (reputable) don't really make much money. I know very few full time Sensei. Traditional martial arts are lifelong pursuits that go far deeper than the high level movements. This is partly why they aren't for everyone and some people move on after a few months or years. Rank is meaningless outside of your own school. Even within a school it isn't usually a major focus (rank will come with time, improving yourself is what's important first) I know that my dojo simply divided the rent, utilities and expenses evenly between Sensei and all the active students and that was our cost. Alverez Sensei and senpai gave instruction as part of their commitment to Budo without compensation. The only time Sensei got any benefit was when we were cutting, which was monthly, and the students equally shared the expense of the tatami; Sensei and senpai got free targets. Sensei's sword was was always cleaned by a student...that was one of my favorite tasks.
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Post by alientude on Jun 21, 2021 20:01:13 GMT
Not JSA, but my fechtmeister charges $10 for each class, with about 4-6 people at each class. He's not doing it for money, that's for sure.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 21, 2021 20:08:25 GMT
I also wonder if a number of the schools, beit ANY kind of martial art, purposely keeps the student progress slow with what they CALL training and/or safety, but in reality is just a means to keep the revenue stream coming in by retarding the students natural ability to progress. What do you guys think? Nope. The school makes no money from your sword. Most earn nothing from your equipment/uniform. Most schools (reputable) don't really make much money. I know very few full time Sensei. Traditional martial arts are lifelong pursuits that go far deeper than the high level movements. This is partly why they aren't for everyone and some people move on after a few months or years. Rank is meaningless outside of your own school. Even within a school it isn't usually a major focus (rank will come with time, improving yourself is what's important first) It's been my experience that if anything, a dojo will sell a pre-packaged belt plan for XX dollars to receive XX belt in 6,12,24 months or whatever. That is a very common sales package. Serious students don't care much about how long it takes, nor are they terribly concerned with earning a belt in a set amount of time. As you said, it's a lifetime pursuit and a life-style. Progression will take a natural course according to the effort put into it by the student.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jun 21, 2021 20:14:51 GMT
Nope. The school makes no money from your sword. Most earn nothing from your equipment/uniform. Most schools (reputable) don't really make much money. I know very few full time Sensei. Traditional martial arts are lifelong pursuits that go far deeper than the high level movements. This is partly why they aren't for everyone and some people move on after a few months or years. Rank is meaningless outside of your own school. Even within a school it isn't usually a major focus (rank will come with time, improving yourself is what's important first) It's been my experience that if anything, a dojo will sell a pre-packaged belt plan for XX dollars to receive XX belt in 6,12,24 months or whatever. That is a very common sales package. Have you found this to be the case in exclusively Ken Jutsu dojo's? I have heard of this with the more popular hand arts like karate and akido.
Serious students don't care much about how long it takes, nor are they terribly concerned with earning a belt in a set amount of time. As you said, it's a lifetime pursuit and a life-style. Progression will take a natural course according to the effort put into it by the student. In my experience with the JSA community, it is all about personal improvement and camaraderie within the dojo and the school you study and to a lesser degree (due to politics) other schools of JSA.My comments above in bold...
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 21, 2021 20:24:21 GMT
There are so very few actual kenjutsu schools that I can't really answer that with any amount of authority. The ones that I do know of are extensions of existing schools. There is a mall McDojo close to me that teaches a kind of kenjutsu, but I watched them for 20 minutes and decided it wasn't what I was looking for. I would assume that training was a fixed amount above whatever belt course the student was already enrolled in.
Yes, the pre-packaged deals are very common for the karate/judo dojos and aimed mostly towards kids.
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Post by MichaelRS on Jun 21, 2021 20:26:14 GMT
"Sports chanbara is an increasingly popular sport in Japan and abroad in which you try to whack your opponent using special air-filled soft sticks. It was invented in the 1970s by Tetsundo Tanabe" To be fair sport chanbara is probably a lot of fun. I'm very tempted to pick up some chanbara swords for a future summer party.... Yeah, it does look kind of fun.
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