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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 19, 2021 20:40:47 GMT
Well, let's not get too crazy. I'm thinking at first just a few vids I can shoot while in Germany withe the HEMA guys showing some very basic and fundamental mechanics of the katana style blade. I try to avoid teaching specific styles as there are so many schools, and somebody always has to point out how "xxx" style according to "yyy" school in the "zzz" period did things 2mm differently from what I just did. If you want to learn a specific school, then seek out a master of that school and learn from him. I plan on basic safety, fundamental movement of the blade as it relates to engineering design and body mechanics, dynamics of a strike, and blocking fundamentals. Trust me when I say that it will take you one to two years to get that much solidified before you can even think about anything more fancy- let alone doing anything with an actual sharp blade.
Maybe later I can do some maintenance activities, I'll see if I have the time. It sounds like a good thing to do, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there that have no idea what to do. A few vids would certainly help.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jun 19, 2021 20:58:50 GMT
Well, let's not get too crazy. I'm thinking at first just a few vids I can shoot while in Germany withe the HEMA guys showing some very basic and fundamental mechanics of the katana style blade. I try to avoid teaching specific styles as there are so many schools, and somebody always has to point out how "xxx" style according to "yyy" school in the "zzz" period did things 2mm differently from what I just did. If you want to learn a specific school, then seek out a master of that school and learn from him. I plan on basic safety, fundamental movement of the blade as it relates to engineering design and body mechanics, dynamics of a strike, and blocking fundamentals. Trust me when I say that it will take you one to two years to get that much solidified before you can even think about anything more fancy- let alone doing anything with an actual sharp blade. Maybe later I can do some maintenance activities, I'll see if I have the time. It sounds like a good thing to do, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there that have no idea what to do. A few vids would certainly help. Don't forget, no good deed goes unpunished...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2021 21:03:30 GMT
There used to be a dedicated iaido group on youtube. I don't see how my youtube search results would differ much from anyone else's. I don't see Abbott listed. www.youtube.com/results?search_query=iaidoThere is a swordsmanship subforum here with some links in a pinned thread, just as there is a pinned thread in this section for beginning katana owners. To see Dana Abbott presented front and center as some sort of wholesomeness means somehow that drive through menu looked the most visually attractive, or from some skewed search term. The SFI group is still viewable. I had posted one thread of note for beginners. www.swordforum.com/vb4/forumdisplay.php?16-Japanese-Swordsmanship-Artswww.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?53083-Why-the-best-piece-of-advice-is-quot-Get-an-Instructor-quot-WARNING-DISTURBING-PHOTOS-ON-P-2Very early on, I asked Michael a pretty simple question as to whether he was interested in Japanese swords, or Japanese style swords. I suppose one could add swordsmanship to the equation. Or, toss it all and simply concentrate on safety and cutting dynamics. Inherently, that is what most are looking for. The discussions are out there. Imo, one could do worse than watching old 1950s Japanese samurai films for learning basic katana etiquette. Or, if interested in the fundamentals of Japanese swordsmanship, simplify your search term to iaido and if preferring the drive through menus, shop around. Be safe
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 19, 2021 21:10:47 GMT
My big concern is that a newbie will buy a sharp blade and go outside and start swinging it around. Regardless of our modern tech, a sword is still a very dangerous weapon. Even a cheap $100 katana can dismember or disembowel with relative ease. In an actual sword training school you never even touch a real blade for 1 to 2 years, minimum. You have to reach a certain rank and show you understand the fundamentals well enough to start training with a live blade. That is the reason guns took over; they require little to no skill while a sword requires a good amount of training to use. I worry a lot about unskilled, untrained, and immature people presenting a danger to themselves and others when using a real sword, but ignorant of all safety considerations.
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tera
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Post by tera on Jun 20, 2021 0:06:44 GMT
My big concern is that a newbie will buy a sharp blade and go outside and start swinging it around. Regardless of our modern tech, a sword is still a very dangerous weapon. Even a cheap $100 katana can dismember or disembowel with relative ease. In an actual sword training school you never even touch a real blade for 1 to 2 years, minimum. You have to reach a certain rank and show you understand the fundamentals well enough to start training with a live blade. That is the reason guns took over; they require little to no skill while a sword requires a good amount of training to use. I worry a lot about unskilled, untrained, and immature people presenting a danger to themselves and others when using a real sword, but ignorant of all safety considerations. I agree with you strongly about swords being dangerous and of the benefit of safety education I must respectfully strongly disagree about firearms requiring little skill or training. Anyone can press the bang switch, not everyone does so intentionally or in a safe and intended direction. There is a reason I am no longer a CCDW instructor and NRA RSO. I have had enough loaded firearms carelessly pointed at me, I am done pressing my luck. Owning a gun does NOT make you a competent handler of one. That is why I care about people's safety here as well. It is also why I don't post how-to videos. Without being ranked by a formal organization and active liability insurance for the LLC I would be operating under, I'm not exposing myself to lawsuits from people who might injure themselves or others and claim it was my fault from watching my videos. Truly, it isn't my intention to be contrary here. I just appreciate the risk on the instructor's side because I have been there. I also remember some dangerous habits my Sensei helped me avoid because I had their in-person feedback. As an olive branch and compromise, I did some digging and it looks like Tenshin Ryu (a controversial school to some) offers online instruction in roughly 3 tiers. First, they have literally dozens, or over 100 free videos on youtube and facebook including some somewhat regimented playlists. Next, I think they have a $60 per month access to their online curriculum that is 100% designed to be professional online instruction. Third, for $100 per month you get more exclusive access, like being able to chat in their live stream sessions and submit your own videos for constructive criticism by qualified instructors. That's last I checked, pricing and availability may have changed. There may be other dojos that offer a similar feedback option, so if that school isn't your thing then hope isn't lost. In my own background I can confirm I spent about a year and a half with bokken before being allowed to handle an iaito, so I can give at least one example of a school that worked as RufusScorpius described. You don't walk into my local Kendo school expecting to put on Bogu and spar for at least a year, and that is just determining their comfort level in your use of a Shinai. You realy get the sense it isn't about snobbery, it truly is safety first.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 20, 2021 0:16:12 GMT
And I have to strongly disagree with you that firearms require little training. You said it yourself, anybody can pick one up and pull the bang lever. Give me 15 minutes with a group that never seen a gun before and I can teach them to load and shoot. At the end of the day, that makes them soldiers. And it makes them better trained soldiers than I've seen in some countries I was deployed to. Not necessarily "safe", but they will be effective. For what it's worth, I've had several types of guns fired at me, mostly intentional, but some not.
I can't say the same if I give the same group of people swords. In that case, with only 15 minutes to train, I would give them baseball bats. Much safer and more intuitive.
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tera
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Post by tera on Jun 20, 2021 0:27:51 GMT
I'm sorry if my emphasis on safety wasn't clear, text is a limiting medium.
Any untrained person can stab something with the pointy end, and any untrained person can point a muzzle and pull the trigger. In neither case are they actually experts, but nor are they necessarily safe in handling the tool. I agree, a good instructor can train a firearm user to competency faster than a sword, but I contend firearms are greater threats in the hands of the untrained if for no other reason than their range and (depending on caliber) structural penetration abilities. A sword'a threat range in the hands of a careless person is much more confined.
Glad you are safe. Nothing like finding yourself "downrange" to up your stress level.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2021 1:09:38 GMT
Guns definitely take training. Maybe a little less training, but a missed shot isn't unlike a flubbed cut in that neither injure the intended target, reducing the sword to a metal bar and the gun to a metal block. Might as well just use a club if you aren't trained with either of them. A point blank shot and a thrust are also similar in the sense anyone can do that and kill someone
Considering how easy it is to miss a shot, especially with a hand gun, I wouldn't say they take no skill. It just takes less
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Post by MichaelRS on Jun 20, 2021 2:03:52 GMT
Basic maintenance and inspection would be good, as well. How to clean a sword during and after cutting. How to inspect and replace mekugi. Pros and cons of brass or delrin mekugi options. As I am unranked in the sword arts I'e studied I both don't feel qualified (nor have the liability insurance) to post "how to" in sword arts. One example of something you may miss in a video. Many schools teach using the left thumb to push on the tsuba to release the habaki from a tight saya. DO NOT do this with your thumb in the 12 o'clock position. You may accidentally over extend the thumb and cut yourself on the blade. The people I trained with recommended pushing from a 1 o'clock position, off-line of the cutting edge. Actually, already loads of maintenance videos on YouTube.
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Post by MichaelRS on Jun 20, 2021 2:06:43 GMT
My big concern is that a newbie will buy a sharp blade and go outside and start swinging it around. Regardless of our modern tech, a sword is still a very dangerous weapon. Even a cheap $100 katana can dismember or disembowel with relative ease. In an actual sword training school you never even touch a real blade for 1 to 2 years, minimum. You have to reach a certain rank and show you understand the fundamentals well enough to start training with a live blade. That is the reason guns took over; they require little to no skill while a sword requires a good amount of training to use. I worry a lot about unskilled, untrained, and immature people presenting a danger to themselves and others when using a real sword, but ignorant of all safety considerations. Not your fault if their parents didn't teach them not to run with scissors type stuff 😄 But honestly I don't understand the great angst over this. It's kind of like the modern notion these days that we're supposed to be responsible for everybody else's feelings. I mean if you have a video that's teaching drawing the katana and so forth and you say in the beginning; AS A NEW PERSON DO NOT DO THIS WITH A SHARP/LIVE BLADE, AS YOU MIGHT CUT YOUR THUMB OR PECKER OFF... with maybe a few more words beyond that, I think you've pretty much fulfilled any reasonable obligation you would have. There this one kid I watch called Just A Bug and that's pretty much the route he takes. Afew sentences about not cutting your head off and then he goes on to demonstrate what he demonstrates. No fuss.
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Post by MichaelRS on Jun 20, 2021 2:09:49 GMT
And I have to strongly disagree with you that firearms require little training. You said it yourself, anybody can pick one up and pull the bang lever. Give me 15 minutes with a group that never seen a gun before and I can teach them to load and shoot. At the end of the day, that makes them soldiers. And it makes them better trained soldiers than I've seen in some countries I was deployed to. Not necessarily "safe", but they will be effective. For what it's worth, I've had several types of guns fired at me, mostly intentional, but some not. I can't say the same if I give the same group of people swords. In that case, with only 15 minutes to train, I would give them baseball bats. Much safer and more intuitive. Been there done that too. Nothing quite gets the heart pumping like the ole two way shooting range. 😁
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Post by bradc on Jun 20, 2021 5:15:33 GMT
My big concern is that a newbie will buy a sharp blade and go outside and start swinging it around. Regardless of our modern tech, a sword is still a very dangerous weapon. Even a cheap $100 katana can dismember or disembowel with relative ease. In an actual sword training school you never even touch a real blade for 1 to 2 years, minimum. You have to reach a certain rank and show you understand the fundamentals well enough to start training with a live blade. That is the reason guns took over; they require little to no skill while a sword requires a good amount of training to use. I worry a lot about unskilled, untrained, and immature people presenting a danger to themselves and others when using a real sword, but ignorant of all safety considerations. This! Many Iaido schools will go even longer before you can use a shinken in general class. A mishandled sword around other people is very dangerous. I have seen serious injuries from Iaito. Also to OP. In general be cautious around people who sell themselves as "Shihan" or "Grandmaster" etc... There are lots of people out there who like to give themselves fancy sounding titles and may not have anything real to back it up. Also, I saw Tenshin Ryu mentioned. All I will say on that is they tend to do really fast waza so please don't start with a sharp sword if that's what you want to do...
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Post by MichaelRS on Jun 20, 2021 7:08:15 GMT
Thank you everybody, but MY parents already taught ME not to run with sharp scissors. Also, I'm an adult man who has made it to 63 despite spending over 35 years prior working with and around firearms, explosives and other weapons and weapons systems thanks to a combination of 13 years in the loving embrace of Uncle Sam and 10 years working for Los Angeles County Department of Public Safety (absorbed into the sheriff's department c. 2010) to name just two. Based on all of that, and more, I'm pretty proficient at not putting my pecker in a meat grinder when it comes to safety.
Therefore I absolve any of you from any responsibility if I decide to start wielding a live blade katana like I've been doing it for 20 years after only trying to do it for 20 minutes. Don't plan to do that, but if I did...it would not be your fault. Just like it's not your fault or responsibility if any other idiots out there decides to do it.
Also, having lived so long, I know there are BS artists out there in many fields. Although granted I am more readily able to recognize BSers who claim to be ex-Special Forces or Rangers or "Master Firearms instructors" then I am anything to do with katanas. But from the late 70s to the early 90s I was involved enough with martial arts to I know there are a number of "Grand BSers" there too.
Even once studied at a dojo run by a guy who claimed to be a direct student of the founder of American Kenpo. One weekend a group of us showed up for our usual lesson and the dojo was closed. Kater we all found out that he only learned his AK from the guy's books and that the real kempo organization was on to him and so he said sayonara.
And if that Abbott guy is one of them, well now I know. But of course that is why I put SEEMS in my OP.
But that brings us back to; Is what he is teaching wrong and or useless to the beginner?
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tera
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Post by tera on Jun 20, 2021 21:23:31 GMT
I won't say the video is entirely bad, but I have a few disagreements that, combined with the rest, may make for an easier and safer intro into sword work.
1) He recommends practicing alone in your backyard at night, as he says to avoid nosey neighbors. I recommend practicing in daylight so you can see yourself, your targets, and your surrounding better for safety. Also, please don't begin cutting completely alone. As you know from your military service, a casualty is not always best capable of self-care of getting help. Let someone know what you're up to, even if they are just watching from a safe distance or window.
2) He doesn't go into equipment requirements, but there is plenty of conversation on these boards on appropriate steels for various targets. Please make sure your mekugi are in good shape and the tsuka is well secured before each session. Swords can fly out of handles.
3) He recommends taking an emory board to the kissaki region to dull it "for safety". I believe his thinking is this reduced risk during poor noto. I humbly recommend starting with either an Iaito or bokken with plastic says (eBogu sells those on Amazon for about $55) instead. If you don't feel safe with any part of a live blade, you probably should practice with something else first.
4) I was never taught to cut the way he is cutting, but there are may differing styles. He did not cover proper grip or stance in much detail at all, but it is important to note that if you are making a downward diagonal cut, do not cut toward a forward leg. That is, if you want to cut from high right to low left, have your left leg back. The idea here is an overswing or failure to stop a swing will not land the blade in your own leg. You may put your kissaki in the dirt, but that is preferable to an ER trip.
5) He goes straight to cutting tatami omote. While this is a traditional target, that may be a bit much at first. I know this isn't sexy, but I recommend working on form first. I won't dictate the school, or as long as it is safe make up your own, but remember two important things about the arc of your cut.
5.1: keep the blade edge in line with the angle of the cut. Try not to "scoop" it left or right. This can lead to a poor cut, a stuck or bent blade, or injury.
5.2: I was taught to 'carve' the blade through targets. That is, instead of smacking the monouchi dead center on the target and trying to force through, try to land a cut (for starters) towards the bottom of the monouchi and as you cut bring the blade in it's natural arc where the tsuka comes back in towards you. The result is the monouchi will slide theough the target from bottom to top. In short, katana slice, not chop. Picture someone carving a thanksgiving turkey, carving off a single piece, slicing from the rear of the blade towards the the tip. (Differing suggestions from other folks VERY welcome on this point. I have made clear I am no expert on the matter, just thinking of safety here.)
5.3: Practice, practice, practice. If you have a bohi, listen to the sound of your cuts. Start almost in slow motion. Work on consistently achieving good cuts in the air, with minimal force. As this fellow says, relax. Once you are at that point, you may consider soft targets. I wouldn't start off on tatami and certainly not bamboo,1x1, or 2x2 lumber. As a final note here, it helps to practice with a bokken heavier than yout ken. This builds strength and helps ensure you can stop a cut consistently.
That last point is probably my biggest suggestion. Even with shinken in hand I would not go straight to cutting targets. Not for weeks, or even months if you are totally new. You have to do your "dry fire" and position drills over and over before you go live.
If you want to scratch that "but I want to slice something" itch, consider a bokken vs a suspended pool noodle. Of course you won't cut through the pool noodle, but it gets you a sense of impact and helps you maintain follow-through. As you get closer to ready, wrap the pool noodle at different heights with electrical tape or something similar. Those lines now represent your target. You can even put tape on the bokken to mark the monouchi region. Film yourself if you want. Once you are consistenly landing the appropriate portion of the blade where you intend to, with a slicing motion, then you may consider cutting with live targets.
My usual request to have yourself evaluated by a trained instructor before transitioning to a live blade applies, but I felt you deserved a response to the posted video. These are my own thoughts and others may disagree. I personally think a lot of time spent on grip, stance, and noto is important, but I certainly don't dictate what others do.
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Post by MichaelRS on Jun 20, 2021 21:46:04 GMT
teraVery useful information and thoughts. Thank you. BTW. The UNsharpened katana I currently have in the works from Hanbon is going to be used as my initial iaido.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2021 21:54:46 GMT
I started with free standing empty carton boxes.
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Post by bradc on Jun 20, 2021 21:55:24 GMT
3) He recommends taking an emory board to the kissaki region to dull it "for safety". I believe his thinking is this reduced risk during poor noto. I humbly recommend starting with either an Iaito or bokken with plastic says (eBogu sells those on Amazon for about $55) instead. If you don't feel safe with any part of a live blade, you probably should practice with something else first. 4) I was never taught to cut the way he is cutting, but there are may differing styles. He did not cover proper grip or stance in much detail at all, but it is important to note that if you are making a downward diagonal cut, do not cut toward a forward leg. That is, if you want to cut from high right to low left, have your left leg back. The idea here is an overswing or failure to stop a swing will not land the blade in your own leg. You may put your kissaki in the dirt, but that is preferable to an ER trip. I'm impressed you're it through that much of the video. He is a verbose presentor and I lost interest around his culture discussion points.... Anyway I wanted to concure on 3 and 4. Dulling the Kissaki is not something I would suggest. I have seen Iaito kissaki injure people so it would have to be very dull and then your sword would be a pain to repolish in future.. As Tera suggested it is best to gain familiarity with the movements using a safe tool first then progress to the sharp one... I did fastforward to his cuts. His hand positioning and swing are completely different from anything I have seen. In most diagonal cuts the left hand moves more up and down than side to side. Similarly some of his nohto are different than I have seen before and he does not cover what left your hand is doing to keep it safe. As Tera said grip and hand positioning is important for safe use.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 21, 2021 0:39:06 GMT
Pfffff.... you guys are going to have a lot of fun tearing apart my video. My only disclaimer and excuse this time is that I am horribly out of practice - in other words, I have no excuses.
Again and again I will say it. I am VERY uncomfortable with the idea of newbies handling live blades. It really goes against everything I've ever been taught or experienced. Learning the movements under supervision with a simulator for a goodly amount of time is the only truly safe way to do it. And by a "goodly amount of time" I mean as long as it takes until your teacher decides you are coordinated enough and mature enough to handle a sharp. Until then, use a bokken, shinai, or even a PVC pipe will do. Anything but a sharp. In my mind being self taught to cut with a live blade is not much different than being a self taught electrical lineman. It'll probably be ok....but your first mistake will be your last.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jun 21, 2021 0:57:19 GMT
My big concern is that a newbie will buy a sharp blade and go outside and start swinging it around. Regardless of our modern tech, a sword is still a very dangerous weapon. Even a cheap $100 katana can dismember or disembowel with relative ease. In an actual sword training school you never even touch a real blade for 1 to 2 years, minimum. You have to reach a certain rank and show you understand the fundamentals well enough to start training with a live blade. That is the reason guns took over; they require little to no skill while a sword requires a good amount of training to use. I worry a lot about unskilled, untrained, and immature people presenting a danger to themselves and others when using a real sword, but ignorant of all safety considerations. This! Many Iaido schools will go even longer before you can use a shinken in general class. A mishandled sword around other people is very dangerous. I have seen serious injuries from Iaito. Also to OP. In general be cautious around people who sell themselves as "Shihan" or "Grandmaster" etc... There are lots of people out there who like to give themselves fancy sounding titles and may not have anything real to back it up. Also, I saw Tenshin Ryu mentioned. All I will say on that is they tend to do really fast waza so please don't start with a sharp sword if that's what you want to do... Excellent advice in bradc's post. Shihan is not 7th dan in Toyama Ryu. 7th dan in Toyama Ryu is "Nanadan". When you read Dana Abbot's claims to have 7th dan rank in you must read it as a lawyer would; From dana's site: ( www.learnthesword.universitymartialarts.com/about-shihan-dana-abbott/ ) " I’m Shihan Dana Abbott and my expertise is in Kenjutsu where I have earned the rank of Shihan 7th Degree Black Belt."
Anyone who seriously studies the Japanese Sword Arts will tell you that Kenjutsu is an umbrella term for all (ko-budō) schools of Japanese swordsmanship. It is NOT a school itself. I have never heard of anyone awarding rank in "kenjitsu". It should also be noted that "shihan Dana Abbott" lists NO rank in any of the established lines of Toyama Ryu, Nakamura Ryu or any of the koryu schools either... just the "kenjutsu" ranking...and no mention of the Sensei who awarded that rank to him. Just some names of instructors studied under. Hmmmmm LMAO.
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Post by MichaelRS on Jun 21, 2021 1:21:46 GMT
Too much negativity. Be confident and self-assured. What would have happened if General Custer had been filled with such trepidation?... Well, okay, maybe that's not the best example. But one can still have confidence and a positive can-do attitude without being foolhardy. And if one is venturing into the unknown it's good to do so with a little circumspection, but not paralyzing fear. If there was not more than one way to skin a cat, would they have come up with that saying? Remember the motto of our SAS cousins across the pond, Who Dares Wins.
And Rufus, if anybody decides they want to tear your videos apart, simply invite them to do better and put out their own video showing the rest of us how it's done.
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