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Post by takitam on Jun 20, 2021 23:04:35 GMT
Looks like many people are very strongly opinionated on this incredibly important subject Maybe I lack the skill to fill a two liter bottle so precisely that it behaves like a solid object. I'm horrible at it and some water always spills when I put the cap on. Need to practice more For me it's a slightly compressible object that weighs around two kilograms and can be easily displaced from a stand. If you consider your sword a holy grail Excalibur then I wouldn't risk it against this arch-nemesis. Academic discussions about water molecules aside, I consider water bottles a light minor target that is much less demanding on a sword than another man in steel helmet/armour (pretty incompressible especially when hit with misaligned edge), wooden shields and other steel swords and weapons. Imagine the outrage if someone here ever used a sword for what it was intended to do and destroyed it in one fight A bit tongue in cheek but I really can't consider it a serious debate. I would if I were making money off swords tho Btw - Imagine a water bottle armor - invincible!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2021 2:57:26 GMT
Looks like many people are very strongly opinionated on this incredibly important subject Maybe I lack the skill to fill a two liter bottle so precisely that it behaves like a solid object. I'm horrible at it and some water always spills when I put the cap on. Need to practice more For me it's a slightly compressible object that weighs around two kilograms and can be easily displaced from a stand. If you consider your sword a holy grail Excalibur then I wouldn't risk it against this arch-nemesis. Academic discussions about water molecules aside, I consider water bottles a light minor target that is much less demanding on a sword than another man in steel helmet/armour (pretty incompressible especially when hit with misaligned edge), wooden shields and other steel swords and weapons. Imagine the outrage if someone here ever used a sword for what it was intended to do and destroyed it in one fight A bit tongue in cheek but I really can't consider it a serious debate. I would if I were making money off swords tho Btw - Imagine a water bottle armor - invincible! Anything sounds ridiculous when you simplify it so. Doesn't really add much to the conversation though. Not to mention people didn't hit each other with full power on each other's armour without training. Also that swords are mostly intended for unarmoured opponents (though they adapted them for use against amour) It depends how hard you are hitting. If you can't cut a water bottle with a light hit, a heavy one won't remedy this. Also, in pretty sure Japanese people bend their swords on tatami all the time which I'm pretty sure would be more forgiving then a heavy 2L bottle on a flubbed cut
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 21, 2021 5:28:57 GMT
another part of the story is HOW the sword bends on the 2l bottle. a very slight bend on a full power swing will be the sign of the sword style. So, a katana or similarly tempered sword might do this. A finely spring tempered sword can also bend slightly under a powerful hit, but might not. A sword that bends deeply, and in multiple places, is probably not properly tempered to be a sword.
I am not an expert, a swordsmith, a sword historian, or a martial artist. However, I have some swords, and some good ones and some bad ones. I've bent some that are unquestionably good swords. THey are remarkably sharp, plenty stiff, and seemingly appropriately dimensioned. But,, I put a slight bend into them on a bad cut. I felt it happen, my poor posture or technique, and the hard hit. The resulting bend was visible, but not enough to disable the sword.
On the other hand, I've sharpened up some wallhangers, and also had bad hits on admittedly cheap swords. They bent severely on one hit, and no matter what I did after that or before, I was generally unable to cut plastic bottles. These swords usually can't be expected to cut paper no matter how you sharpen them, and bend like wire when you put them over your knee. They bend so severely, you can visibly see the frequency of their vibration, because the sword actually looks like a sine wave. (ok that's not actually why they bend like that, but it looks like that so it's a funny thing to say,, it's just where you hit it, where the handle is, and somewhere between those two points as well).
so although a good sword of some construction types will certainly bend on a 2l bottle if you clunk it,, exactly how it bends is still important to whether the sword is durable enough or not.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2021 19:15:42 GMT
Look at it this way. Take your mostly full 2 liter bottle. Grasp firmly and smack it upside your head. Report back on how much compression you felt.
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 26, 2021 5:53:51 GMT
Look at it this way. Take your mostly full 2 liter bottle. Grasp firmly and smack it upside your head. Report back on how much compression you felt. I mean a well flung 2 liter bottle could kill a small child. I mean it probably won't, but if you hit them right, the very least that would happen is a complete knockout. anyway, I may have had a little sharpening breakthrough. I just have more success with really rough edged swords, for MOST of my swords. So, I cruised the "kona abrasives" abrasives shop near my work, and talked to the keeper, and he sampled me a zirconium disk and a trizact belt. I was just using the 80 grit zirconium disk, and it does some serious removal on the edge, making for a really toothy edge at a nice bevel angle in a really acceptably small amount of time. It should take some of the stress off my tangs, I think, to be able to quickly brush up the edge to the same bevel angle, but a really bitey edge whenever I want to cut, and in a minute or so. (it won't be pretty, but it will be a good anti-plastic-bottle edge)
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Post by pgandy on Jun 26, 2021 12:54:28 GMT
I'd like to know how that works out.
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 27, 2021 5:24:34 GMT
I'd like to know how that works out. I've been sharpening a bunch of stuff with it today,, it seems to be going quite well. the zirconium is "manmade diamond", so it's up at 80 hrc. while that doesn't mean it's a god abrasive, it sort of does. I ground the bevel on the honshu in one good rub up the blade, which is probably the hardest of the metals in the swords that I've been cutting with. I didn't have good success on the en9 universal swords,, it just isn't hardened right. It would cut a soft target, like a light water bottle, but I don't see it working out on mt. dew. (I didn't get to cut with it, someone parked in my cutting spot by then). THe en9 munitions grade balaur arms sword I have, however, that is a twisted blade, and blunts still fairly easily, is really bitey, and I feel very good about it, and it sharpened up in a similarly very short bit of grinding. (I glued the disc to a small piece of plywood, so it's a little bit like sharpening with a pingpong paddle). I've failed to cut with that one a lot, and then only had success when file grinding it,, but that took a lot of time,, the zirconium disc was very rapid to a fat burr. I didn't have as much success with the trizact belt. I cut a piece off, and glued it to a bit of cardboard tube,, I don't know if I just needed to make it onto something flat instead, or if the belt is just too fine and isn't really up to edge honing, but it seemed to wear out quickly on some cheap stainless steel blades. (like budk sells). it's 2000 grit, and supposedly very expensive, so I am imagining it is designed for polishing surfaces, not for honing edges, but the grit all came out pretty quick. I only used a few inches of the belt (I don't have a belt sander, so I will just slice bits off), so I have plenty to glue some to a piece of plywood or something, but I don't think I will look to purchase the trizact ever, especially if it's pricey. I have some stones that work well for fine honing, and there really isn't a problem with them, it's just that so many of my swords don't cut well under that sharpening,, instead they seem to perform best with the 80 grit edge, and the burr basically left on. (I'm finding that a lot of my swords are completely ruined from stropping, and that if I just grind a 80 grit burr, or filed burr, they cut excellently, and I am going to basically assume the wisdom here is to just have a nice rough edge, and then rough it up before use when possible or necessary. --- some of my blades are much harder,, like differentially hardened blades, and then knife techniques seem to be more appropriate, but actually the ones I enjoy cutting with the most are not this way, and seem to perform all the way well just with the rough edge. ) it is perfectly imaginable that the reason I struggle with finer grits is simply my sharpening skill, but actually the logic of an 80 grit edge on a softer metal makes sense to me,, the "teeth" of the edge will be more well supported, since they are larger, and will hold up to cutting better than a very fine edge would. Another consideration is the target medium,,, well,, I can imaging that cutting a person is very different than a plastic bottle. I have been amazed by the times I've rubbed myself with a blade without cutting through life, but then again, a sword swing is different, and I feel like my body would be much much easier to cut than the bottle plastic. So although the sword might not be that effective on a bottle,,, it might be very effective on a person. I just don't know, and since I really don't intend to make war-swording a part of my life,, I probably won't really ever. For me, it would be a disaster that someone takes a blow from a sword, and really learning how to cut opponents would take a lot of practice just like anything else,, so there's really no logic in worrying about all of that,, which is why my focus is just on the budget targets available to me,, random plastic bottles. Some people cut a lot of wood, but I don't have that around here, it's very urban, and the blade that chops wood is really quite different than the one that it takes on plastic bottles. (that is not to say a blade can't be better and still cut wood, but its just that a really blunt edge can still cut into a lot of green woods. ) anyway I'm going to go back next week to "kona abrasives" and pick up the order set aside for me,, basically the box of zirconium disks, and a velcro sanding block (which I will experiment with, but may choose to just glue to blocks, depending on how that goes,, I'm concerned the velcro will compress affecting my control over the bevel surface). it's like 50$ for a box of discs, making them about 2$ per disc,, but the time it saves by being 80 hrc is definitely proven. it's a completely different animal than aluminum oxide, no question. Now, I won't say that it's the choice for everyone,, a lot of people will want to be gentle and careful with their edges, and an 80 grit zirconium disc is none of those things,, it's rough, fast, and dirty, , but I am certainly right where I was hoping to be with it. Files actually don't have that kind of speed of removal except the first few minutes of use, it really went pretty quick. So,, a lot of risk for damaging a fine sword, but if you are looking for the roughness, I guess it's the best I've encountered.
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Post by pgandy on Jun 27, 2021 12:58:52 GMT
Thank you for the detailed report. I’m always looking for information on sharpening tools and methods. I find no one tool nor method will work best in all cases. However I was more interested in knowing the cutting effect of the blade after the ‘tsm’ treatment. The last time I sharpened a machete I used only the extra coarse belt on my belt sander as an experiment but haven’t had a chance to fully test. That belt left more teeth on the edge than I normally use but appears smooth to the eye. The traditional method with a machete is with a file, and this is how I see Latinos do it. On examining the edge on their working machetes I found them to be dull to wickedly sharp, and points in between. One had such a pronounced toothy edge I think it would almost saw due to the chips. As for the Universal swords; I have three. Two are EN9 and one 1065 steel. I’ll never buy an EN9 blade again. The only reason I bought the second one was that it was a Princes of Wales and I’ve seen so many rave about and it is usually out of stock and KoA was having a holiday sale, I think during Thanksgiving. I’ve never troubled myself to sharpen that one and will be a wall hanger, the other is a P1796 Sergeants Sword that I sharpened. The P1796 has never held an edge well and is the only blade I’ve bent. I did this when you were well into your tang thread. I had just sharpened it and had collect six 2½L bottles that I was going to target with my new kukri, which went through five like a piece of cake. I used a Coke bottle and the sword failed to cut it. The first thing I realized was the impact shock, my hand tingled from the vibrations. I’ve never experienced anything like that. There was a slight bend in the blade, perhaps 2-3° at the base of the foible. That will be the last cut the P1796 will make. It’s a beautiful sword and like the PoW I will admire it on the wall. Universal makes beautiful swords but my opinion their EN9 models lack in performance. As for the 1065 steel one, a M1902 sword, I’ve had no issues with that. The steel is not as hard as my Windlass 1065 steel M1840 NCO but serviceable and I’ve been enjoying that one.
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 29, 2021 7:47:16 GMT
Thank you for the detailed report. I’m always looking for information on sharpening tools and methods. I find no one tool nor method will work best in all cases. However I was more interested in knowing the cutting effect of the blade after the ‘tsm’ treatment. The last time I sharpened a machete I used only the extra coarse belt on my belt sander as an experiment but haven’t had a chance to fully test. That belt left more teeth on the edge than I normally use but appears smooth to the eye. The traditional method with a machete is with a file, and this is how I see Latinos do it. On examining the edge on their working machetes I found them to be dull to wickedly sharp, and points in between. One had such a pronounced toothy edge I think it would almost saw due to the chips. As for the Universal swords; I have three. Two are EN9 and one 1065 steel. I’ll never buy an EN9 blade again. The only reason I bought the second one was that it was a Princes of Wales and I’ve seen so many rave about and it is usually out of stock and KoA was having a holiday sale, I think during Thanksgiving. I’ve never troubled myself to sharpen that one and will be a wall hanger, the other is a P1796 Sergeants Sword that I sharpened. The P1796 has never held an edge well and is the only blade I’ve bent. I did this when you were well into your tang thread. I had just sharpened it and had collect six 2½L bottles that I was going to target with my new kukri, which went through five like a piece of cake. I used a Coke bottle and the sword failed to cut it. The first thing I realized was the impact shock, my hand tingled from the vibrations. I’ve never experienced anything like that. There was a slight bend in the blade, perhaps 2-3° at the base of the foible. That will be the last cut the P1796 will make. It’s a beautiful sword and like the PoW I will admire it on the wall. Universal makes beautiful swords but my opinion their EN9 models lack in performance. As for the 1065 steel one, a M1902 sword, I’ve had no issues with that. The steel is not as hard as my Windlass 1065 steel M1840 NCO but serviceable and I’ve been enjoying that one. My Balaur en9 sword is turning out to be quite a bit better cutting than my universal en9. That's without a doubt. At first I didn't like the balaur and found it impossible to sharpen, but when I sharpened it with a file it worked, and when I sharpened it with the zirconium disk the entire double edge worked, instead of just the test patch on a cutting zone. It's a rough edge, I don't see it holding a knife style edge, but a "filed" or 80 grit edge it appears to take like a beast. So, it's twisted,,, but by now it's plenty dangerous. It left the water bottle on the stand, which I never expected of it, and which the universal never did for me. So I suppose if Universal just tempered differently, like balaur, then they would have more twisted blades, my balaur is twisted, but they would be more functional, because the edges would be a lot more able to cut. Just thinking out loud on that one. I haven't played with the zirconium or file on a weapon edge sword I have, which is 1095 (the french artillery one at KOA), but the weapon edge sword cuts with a much finer edge,, it's just that you need to hone it a lot. So I'm thinking of using a rougher paper like the zirconium, or perhaps less rough, just some drywall paper at first, to see how long that lasts while still cutting easily. But I did try the universal swords with the zirconium, and I still don't see it cutting more than light water bottles.
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 29, 2021 8:02:23 GMT
actually after sharpening with the zirconium, I am really wondering what deepeeka swords are like.
Do they bend really easily? Or are they plenty hard but impossible to cut with? what's going on there?? Do I want one?
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Post by aldarith on Jun 29, 2021 9:52:23 GMT
Buy one and find out, they are cheap.
There are supposedly a lot of lemons but they have upped their game like crazy lately.
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Post by pgandy on Jun 29, 2021 12:19:13 GMT
My Balaur en9 sword is turning out to be quite a bit better cutting than my universal en9. Which Balaur sword do you have of EN9? My search turns up EN45 or 5160 steels being used except for one that is pattern welded.
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Post by pgandy on Jun 29, 2021 12:23:42 GMT
My Balaur en9 sword is turning out to be quite a bit better cutting than my universal en9. Which Balaur sword do you have of EN9? My search turns up EN45 or 5160 steels being used except for one that is pattern welded.
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 30, 2021 3:39:01 GMT
My Balaur en9 sword is turning out to be quite a bit better cutting than my universal en9. Which Balaur sword do you have of EN9? My search turns up EN45 or 5160 steels being used except for one that is pattern welded. oh I guess it must be en45 then. It's the 12th century arming sword 2nds quality (first run). I bought it for 120$ I think. At first I got it and thought I would wait until I sharpened it to make any decisions, but it was definitely twisted and I was worried. Then I sharpened it and noticed right away it didn't feel like it was holding an edge at all, and cutting paper tests weren't particularly stunning, and sure enough i could mostly fail cuts. Then I was disappointed and tried to sell it for 50$, but no one hit my cl ad. Than after quite a long time actually, I file sharpened one side of the tip (which you were commenting in that string, so may remember), and it cut very nicely, so I decided the sword would be ok. Then the last thing that happened was noted above with the zirconium disk sharpening the entire sword, both sides of the blade, in really just a few short minutes, and then the sword cuts so cleanly I was actually shocked a bit. It's a really reasonable sword. Also, I've had a good handful of bad cuts with it, , and I do mean the kind of cuts that completely bend some other swords I have, and it didn't take any bends at all. It's just twisted, but that's the same as it was originally. NOw, the sword is twisted, so probably by now I'm better at edge alignment than I was, since it's different than the other swords I have, and of course it's a 32" arming sword, and it's the only such sword I have, so I also have gotten used to a 32" arming sword a bit more by now,, there are plenty of other reasons why my cutting should have improved, ,,, but the ease of sharpening with an 80 grit zirconium disk was the point of the comment. So, using a file I needed a lot more time to remove that much metal,, but files are only around 60HRC. Zirconium is at around 80HRC. So firstly what's impressive is that it felt like a hot knife through butter across the entire edge of the blade, , but going from won't cut paper at all to skin biting sharp in really no time at all. ---and then secondarily, Once I got such good results out of the Balaur,, actually I got a really good deal on a perfectly serviceable sword, because now it's sharp, and even when dull I could abuse it pretty heavily without it taking a set. in fact i even saw there's one for sale in the forum and paused over that for a bit, just in case that comes up.
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Post by julio_corradi on Sept 21, 2021 3:44:24 GMT
"For example, I don't know (this is really the whole question), if the tangs should be through hardened, and they are not,, or if they are soft from the heating associated with peening, and peening should be done cold, or if peening should simply be done more expertly and quickly in order to prevent too much heating, or if the end of the tang should be prepared a particular way so that cold peening is easy, or if actually the tangs should not be through hardened, but they are, which is why they bend thusly." hello , i am new on this forum, but not to swords.. no a sword should not bend in its tang. the reason your swords are bending is because the blade and tang taper is poorly executed and so a bend at the tang is forming. some historical swords do have a hardened tang that is then drawn back. others have a iron tang scarf welded to a steel blade.. (very popular in central asia, india and persia... and was done in solingen and sheffield in the 18th cnetury to save money on steel) many uyghur knives are still scarf welded to this day.. most swords are qunched about 1 inch for the tang.. and the tang may only have a little work hadness from forging.. tangs are mostly left soft when quenching.. but the proper .. superior way would be to quench the blade past the tang and then draw the temper back from the tang and into the lower section of the blade creating a differential temper for part of the lower portion of the blade and taking most of the temper out of the tang. some antique european swords do indeed have this.. the reason the tangs bend on yourreproduction swords is because the lack taper.. tangs are quite narrow and thin by comparison to the blade weight and the blades on most indian made modern swords are not as thick as the originals... on the old original swords the blade was much thicker and the tangs had a profile and thicnkess taper , some also have a stepped tang that is narrower than the blade forged into them to transition the flex in the blade.. . the sword should flex in an ark and the ark sould slow down in the tang and show almost no flex... on old swords this is why the tang can be very thick for a short portion.. 11-12mm just as it enters the hilt. the indian swords blades also have an uneven thickness and poor teper and so in some places dont flex right with causes the flex inturn to enter the tang.. the indian swords and chiense ones mostly dont have a forged in tang.. the tang is many times cut with a plasma cutter or similar.. so it is also fully annealed steel wihtout an work harndess at all. let alone tempering.. historically most swords are not hardened for an inch or so formt he hild.. but having the rapid change in thickness stops the flex transitioning into the tang. in short there is many factors causing it but the main reason is they are not accurate in their blade domensions when compared to oriignals. also bending IN the blade as well.. is just an indicator of poor hardening. some swords that lack tempering, japanese, chinese and south east asian swords will jsut take bends with use as most of the oroginal ones are an iron blade with a steel edge and can be bent by hand.. hence the thick heavy blade son many antique japanese, chinese and south east asian swords.. some olde rlaminated dah are very thick for much fo the bade.,, same with chinese swords. katanas.. ect. taper can be less than 15-20% from hilt to tip.. in these case.. yes bending can happen but generally it is bending in the blade... if the blade has the correct profile it will not bend in the tang., bent tang =broken sword or broken handle.. a bend blade can be straightened with ease.. (some older large laminated parangs are 15-20mm thick in the blade.. almost an a square of iron intentionally to stop the tang flexing at all as it would split the handle.. ) it is just an accepted matter that these modern reproductions are cheaply made and poorly heat treated.. no matter what vendors tell you. that combined with poor taper and blade profile and they will many times bend. european types of monosteel swords should have flexable blades that have a complex blade profile and so need to be fully quenched and properly tempered.. many of these chinese and indian made swords.. you can see when they make them the blades are not always hot all the way through... when quenched some of the blade is unhardened and shortly it becomes a banana...
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Post by aldarith on Oct 6, 2021 4:16:24 GMT
Hey Julio, you typed your response inside the quote box so you may want to edit that and move it outside!
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