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Post by tsmspace on Jun 15, 2021 3:57:05 GMT
So, I will paste the relevant paragraphs below. Another poster suggested I should try to post some pictures here about my swords. They bend right at the tang. I am not looking to "repair" the swords, as I don't see a possible repair that I am going to undertake, however I am curious to understand the construction of the swords in greater detail, and where the faults and possible improvements would be. For example, I don't know (this is really the whole question), if the tangs should be through hardened, and they are not,, or if they are soft from the heating associated with peening, and peening should be done cold, or if peening should simply be done more expertly and quickly in order to prevent too much heating, or if the end of the tang should be prepared a particular way so that cold peening is easy, or if actually the tangs should not be through hardened, but they are, which is why they bend thusly. Please excuse my pictures, they are poor quality, and I don't know if you can see the bends,, but basically they bend right exactly at the point where the tang and blade meet. It's a slight bend, it generally doesn't get any more dramatic after that, unless I seriously bend the sword elsewhere also. """" Although, I don't know if my tangs of some swords are wrong, improperly heat treated, or I just am overly abusive. While using my swords to successfully cut, or have bad cuts for some, but for some only good cuts,, my tangs end up getting a bit of an angle to them. They bend a bit to one side. Is this just an aspect of swords that they all bend a bit at the tang? It's not terribly dramatic, but it's definitely noticeable. It doesn't seem to impact my interaction with the sword much, but I am assuming that it must be that the tangs are annealed during peening or perhaps they never were properly heat treated. I keep thinking that peening should be done cold hammering instead of by heating. """"" """""That sounds really odd to me. Could you start a new thread in the sword repair forum and post a picture?"""""" """""""I can actually,, I will have to get that one ready by taking some pictures,, maybe over dinner today. Also, I will need to introduce it properly,, I will state that it was recommended in another thread that I start a thread in sword repair and I will probably paste my paragraphs as well. I don't know how I will go about the discussion, because I don't imagine a "repair" that could be done,, so I will probably paste your comment without your name,, and then say I wasn't searching for a repair but instead am interested in learning about proper construction and how to understand the quality of construction in the swords I've experienced.""""""" the swords are a ronin katana euro9, a windlass 1860 union lcs, and a weapon edge british royal artillery gunners sword
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Post by aldarith on Jun 15, 2021 14:32:12 GMT
Hail friend! Here I am So having had a look at these photos, I am not entirely sure that you are experiencing a bend. As you know, swords are a composite of separate parts held together by force using some combination of peen, nut, scale and so on. In your case these are all peened swords. What I think is happening (and it's most obvious in picture 1, if I am correct) is occurring in production. I think that when your sword were assembled, the components (crossguard or cup, grip and pommel/washer) were laid up on the hilt and were let to play - that is to say, left loose. Because they are production swords, the parts often have very wide tolerances in order to best ensure they will 'fit' on blades of varying dimensions. This means the slot in a crossguard is liable to be several mm larger than the blade, and the remaining space is often filled with resin, glue or epoxy, etc. So returning to my theory, I think what happened is that your hilt components were laid up on the tang without shimming and the peen was applied, then the 'loose' components turned slightly under the pressure, THEN the remaining deadspace was filled with resin or what-have-you. My guess is that all these swords are through-hardened and probably not super flexible and this is just a little hint of human involvement in the creation process of the sword (something I personally enjoy). many originals exhibit the same kind of variation - j ust have a look at the writhen sword!It's extremely extremely uneven by modern standards once you give it a close look. The only way to be certain of anything would be to take down the swords (take apart) and have a look under the hood, but that means ultimately shortening your grip to re-peen and reassemble it because you will have ground off the initial peen. I imagine if you exercise caution and don't do anything extreme to the swords that they will be fine
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2021 14:51:10 GMT
Water does not compress. Batting away a full 2 ltr is smacking a four pound baseball with a flexible blade.
If you go back through history, tangs were often soft iron up to the early modern era. Even past the advent of the British patent full tangs for military sabres, tangs were forge welded to the blades. Modern swords are a mixed bag. Some blades are marquenched, still not always hardening the tangs. Some still have a soft tang welded to the blade proper.
It is the blows that do not cut that become abusive and may bend a tang as you illustrate. You should be able to bend those straight. Or leave them alone and don't hit those home runs with water bottles, and other solid unyielding blows.
Cheers GC
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 15, 2021 21:08:45 GMT
Hail friend! Here I am So having had a look at these photos, I am not entirely sure that you are experiencing a bend. As you know, swords are a composite of separate parts held together by force using some combination of peen, nut, scale and so on. In your case these are all peened swords. What I think is happening (and it's most obvious in picture 1, if I am correct) is occurring in production. I think that when your sword were assembled, the components (crossguard or cup, grip and pommel/washer) were laid up on the hilt and were let to play - that is to say, left loose. Because they are production swords, the parts often have very wide tolerances in order to best ensure they will 'fit' on blades of varying dimensions. This means the slot in a crossguard is liable to be several mm larger than the blade, and the remaining space is often filled with resin, glue or epoxy, etc. So returning to my theory, I think what happened is that your hilt components were laid up on the tang without shimming and the peen was applied, then the 'loose' components turned slightly under the pressure, THEN the remaining deadspace was filled with resin or what-have-you. My guess is that all these swords are through-hardened and probably not super flexible and this is just a little hint of human involvement in the creation process of the sword (something I personally enjoy). many originals exhibit the same kind of variation - j ust have a look at the writhen sword!It's extremely extremely uneven by modern standards once you give it a close look. The only way to be certain of anything would be to take down the swords (take apart) and have a look under the hood, but that means ultimately shortening your grip to re-peen and reassemble it because you will have ground off the initial peen. I imagine if you exercise caution and don't do anything extreme to the swords that they will be fine So,, just some clarification, in case it is helpful. -All of these swords arrived quite straight,, I can't say perfect or not, but plenty straight. THen, I hit something, failed a cut, and then they deformed somewhat. -all of them did also experience bending in the blade. (well, the windlass I am not sure about that, it may not have bent in the blade). The bend in the weapon edge artillery gunner sword was the most pronounced, and I did try to return it a bit. The ronin katana sword bent a bit, and although I doubt you can see it in that picture, it's still there. It wasn't enough to try bending back, especially because that sword is particularly sharp, so I would surely cut myself gripping the blade bare handed, especially since bending in the right place and so slightly would be very challenging with my hands. Therefore you might be able to see that there is a bend at the point of percussion (not the center of percussion, but where I actually impacted)
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 15, 2021 21:17:23 GMT
Water does not compress. Batting away a full 2 ltr is smacking a four pound baseball with a flexible blade. If you go back through history, tangs were often soft iron up to the early modern era. Even past the advent of the British patent full tangs for military sabres, tangs were forge welded to the blades. Modern swords are a mixed bag. Some blades are marquenched, still not always hardening the tangs. Some still have a soft tang welded to the blade proper. It is the blows that do not cut that become abusive and may bend a tang as you illustrate. You should be able to bend those straight. Or leave them alone and don't hit those home runs with water bottles, and other solid unyielding blows. Cheers GC yes,,, I agree,, water bottles can destroy the sword. I have bent many swords. If the sword doesn't cut,, the bottle is quite resistant, and there is quite a shock. Also, all of the swords at the sub 200$ price point seem to bend a little on a full hit on a bottle that doesn't cut. It's possible to hit without bending. but a bend is likely. often the bend is not enough to justify bending back, the bend is visible but very slight. SOME of my swords, , I had a universal swords saber, they bend a lot. I didn't bother posting those because those swords are so soft, they really don't count in the discussion,,, OF COURSE they bent, once you handle them. I think a lot of sword makers are testing their swords on fruit, so if it cuts a cucumber they are happy. there's another sword that bent quite far, but you might know about that already. I also bent a shinwa 1040 40$ katana all up over time, and bent it back,, but those are good for that. I was thinking about buying another shinwa jian.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 15, 2021 21:49:18 GMT
Knock on wood. I’ve never bent a sword, 1045, Univesal, or whatever. Perhaps on the next outing but so far I’m batting 0. I thought that I injured a katana one morning. I placed a rug over the bottle and could have sworn that I hit a brick wall. I wish I knew the answer to your problem. Edge alignment?
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Post by tsmspace on Jun 15, 2021 22:47:50 GMT
Knock on wood. I’ve never bent a sword, 1045, Univesal, or whatever. Perhaps on the next outing but so far I’m batting 0. I thought that I injured a katana one morning. I placed a rug over the bottle and could have sworn that I hit a brick wall. I wish I knew the answer to your problem. Edge alignment? The thing is,,, once you chalk the whole thing up to newbieness,,, then there does get to be a deeper explanation. So,, although the problem is I am swinging like it's a bat, and not a blade, and I am hitting harder than I need to, instead of knowing what it takes to make the cut, and then cutting,,,,, There still are things to think about with the swords specific manufacture, because WHY does it bend one way and not another, etc. For example, I have noticed some important things about how swords bend when you smash them into a bad cut. It's not like a bar, which simply bends on the target. Instead, a massive oscillation is powered into the blade, resulting in up to 3 bends which appear to correlate to the nodes of the sword based on where you are holding it, where you are hitting along the blade, and of course the specific shape of the blade. So,, there is the handle, the point of impact, and another point in between the two, about halfway between, that can all bend at once. However, with these swords this did not happen. Instead, there may or may not be a slight bend at the point of impact, and then there is a slight bend right at the tang. The swords that do bend all crazy are generally items that would be considered wallhangers, but since I had one I thought I'd find out what it was like to hit with it. (I don't want wallhangers, I got them on accident, but once you have a piece of metal, you might as well see what happens).
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 15, 2021 23:47:41 GMT
Knock on wood. I’ve never bent a sword, 1045, Univesal, or whatever. Perhaps on the next outing but so far I’m batting 0. I thought that I injured a katana one morning. I placed a rug over the bottle and could have sworn that I hit a brick wall. I wish I knew the answer to your problem. Edge alignment? So,, although the problem is I am swinging like it's a bat, and not a blade, and I am hitting harder than I need to,... Batting rather than slicing could do it as well. I should have added along with poor edge alignment.
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Post by aldarith on Jun 16, 2021 0:57:16 GMT
I don't chalk it up to newbie technique, it could very well be a symptom of cheaper swords with a cheaper treatment - sometimes you get a winner in the inexpensive swords but sometime you get the opposite. You do seem to have an unlucky streak lately though!
I am not super familiar with your videos but I know you have posted a fair few and you have more posts than I so I expect you know a fair share as well, but I would ask some questions to begin ruling things out:
Are the swords new and coming from reputable dealers?
Are they munitions grade/factory seconds or standard?
Are you cutting regular water bottles or something thicker?
Are you using the swords for any other target types?
Have you modified the swords at all or applied heat to them?
Is each of your swords bending or are these just a few isolated swords in a larger collection?
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Post by snubnoze on Jun 16, 2021 18:17:44 GMT
For what it's worth, I've had a RK #7 Longsword for 2 years that I've done plenty of cutting with and haven't seen any issues with the blade alignment. Well, at least none that my eye can detect.
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Post by takitam on Jun 17, 2021 23:59:42 GMT
Water does not compress. Batting away a full 2 ltr is smacking a four pound baseball with a flexible blade. It is the blows that do not cut that become abusive and may bend a tang as you illustrate. You should be able to bend those straight. Or leave them alone and don't hit those home runs with water bottles, and other solid unyielding blows. Bad cuts notwithstanding, when a sword bends on a 2 liter plastic bottle it is a sign of a bad sword. No swordsman ever cuts a moving target perfectly every time. An opponents hand is heavier that 2 kilos of water and protected by heavy clothing/mail/plate so you have to expect that a lot of hits will not cut. Obviously its quite easy to destroy even a good sword. They are quite delicate and require precision and control to get the maximum performance. But it is still a solid piece of steel. When properly designed, made and heat treated, it should last for a while. One battle, or at least some part of it
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2021 0:18:07 GMT
"when a sword bends on a 2 liter plastic bottle it is a sign of a bad sword"
Nonsense.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 18, 2021 1:17:29 GMT
I believe that it can happen but I am certainly not going out of my way to prove the point.
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Post by aldarith on Jun 18, 2021 1:50:44 GMT
I mean hold the phone... If a sword bends without effort, yeah that is probably a bad sword. If you get it out of the box and swing at a bottle, striking a glancing blow, and it bends - that's bad. If you are constantly batting with the flat and it bends that's a different matter. In my experience you can definitely expect the tool to absorb a certain threshold of abuse, the tool is designed for combat. If it is unfit for combat it's pretty much an SLO. OBVIOUSLY there are budget swords that are designed to cut light targets and nothing more, obviously I am slightly oversimplifying and you and I know that swords are often designed for a specific use case. If you bat a 2L with an epee you are gonna bend that damn sword. @edelweiss could you please extrapolate your 'Nonsense' post because it's trivializing to the point of being unhelpful, and perhaps you do not realize this. If you are suggesting what I am suggesting (that an epee can't bat a 2l bottle), then we are on the same page and it is indeed nonsense. If you are suggesting that it would be OK for an Albion Archduke to bend on a 2L, we are in parallel universes
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2021 5:26:39 GMT
"edelweiss could you please extrapolate your 'Nonsense'"
Forget I was ever here and all others please join in to perpetuate the lack of information posted as some truth. Half truths posted as maxims and understanding that having fun is more important than actually understanding a subject. My first post in the tread says it all. I have nothing further to post on the matter.
Enjoy
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Post by aldarith on Jun 18, 2021 19:56:43 GMT
"edelweiss could you please extrapolate your 'Nonsense'" Forget I was ever here and all others please join in to perpetuate the lack of information posted as some truth. Half truths posted as maxims and understanding that having fun is more important than actually understanding a subject. My first post in the tread says it all. I have nothing further to post on the matter. Enjoy Man - you are about as clear as mud sometimes
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Jun 19, 2021 4:19:51 GMT
"edelweiss could you please extrapolate your 'Nonsense'" Forget I was ever here and all others please join in to perpetuate the lack of information posted as some truth. Half truths posted as maxims and understanding that having fun is more important than actually understanding a subject. My first post in the tread says it all. I have nothing further to post on the matter. Enjoy Man - you are about as clear as mud sometimes (rofl) No, hate to say it but he was pretty clear in his first comment--2L bottles when the sword and/or technique are insufficient to cut are definitely sword abuse. It sounds weird because when the sword and technique ARE sufficient it's remarkably easy. Once the "skin" of the plastic bottle is opened it's all easy peasy. But if it's not--especially if the top is screwed down and the bottle is sealed--the incompressibility of the water makes it like a four pound solid object. (It's why, yeah, jump from a high enough bridge into water you may as well be jumping onto concrete; or why a six inch thick piece of green wood is an inadvisable target--the fluid filled cell walls are like thousands of mini-plastic-bottles.) And, though it's been a long time, I indeed have broken pommels clear off swords because of bad impacts on 2L bottles--swords that were perfectly good against meat and bone, tatami, bit into wood, and did or would have held up to plate or mail. Quality swords. You have to be very careful with the 2Ls. Yeah, if the edge is right for them, and you're doing it right, no problem. But if not, STOP. You just might end up breaking a good sword, even a great one. Change targets, or fix the edge so it's proper for that target.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jun 19, 2021 12:16:57 GMT
Empire Costume, en.empirecostume.com/, declares cutting plastic bottles as abusive. This was after a member broke the pommel of one of their swords and they refused a refund, but offered an adjustment if he bought another. When testing with a katana, I once covered a bottle with a rug, so that may not count here, and that was like hitting a wall. I can slice through one with ease and if I didn’t know better wouldn’t consider them much of a challenge. And it’s not assuming the technique is close. They can be deceptive.
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Post by aldarith on Jun 19, 2021 13:34:05 GMT
LeMal what I was getting at with @edelweiss is that he refused to clarify what degree of use was abuse when asked, not that he was 'wrong'. Use is not abuse but there's a threshold, right? A tool can't be expected to stand up to a task it was not intended for and we all agree that batting a 2L is pretty unhealthy. What I said was it's unhealthier for some blades than others and @edelweiss has not yet stated where his threshold of abuse lies, so what I was asking him was where, in his mind, the threshold lies. It was an invitation, not a condemnation (though I can't say I have yet received the same courtesy )
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LeMal
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Post by LeMal on Jun 19, 2021 20:33:11 GMT
LeMal what I was getting at with @edelweiss is that he refused to clarify what degree of use was abuse when asked, not that he was 'wrong'. Use is not abuse but there's a threshold, right? A tool can't be expected to stand up to a task it was not intended for and we all agree that batting a 2L is pretty unhealthy. What I said was it's unhealthier for some blades than others and @edelweiss has not yet stated where his threshold of abuse lies, so what I was asking him was where, in his mind, the threshold lies. It was an invitation, not a condemnation (though I can't say I have yet received the same courtesy (rofl) x_x ) Yeah, I can get that. Hopefully my comment clarified then. I.e. 2L's are weird, either the sword is sharp enough in the specific way to break the skin and then they're super-easy--or in a very sudden transition they're hell on the sword. No real in-between.
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