tera
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Post by tera on May 18, 2021 3:23:01 GMT
As I am learning more about what is out there and looking for a first shinken for light cutting, I keep noticing this particular blade design. Hanwei makes a Raptor in this style (5160 mono) and Munetoshi makes a Viper in this syle (1075 mono). Hanwei Raptor Unokubi Zukuri: www.swordnarmory.com/new/raptor-katana-unokubi-zukuri-by-paul-chen-cas-hanwei/Munetoshi Viper: www.swordnarmory.com/munetoshi-viper-unokubi-zukuri-katana-1075-spring-steel-samurai-sword-katatemaki/Both are a little above my $300 budget, but after a recent health scare I realized I can't take it with me. Pros: -purportedly very light. Practical for an older practitioner with a nagging shoulder injury. -Supposedly very agile and fast, nice for Iai in theory. -Both rated for light cutting and both of some grade of through hardened spring steel. Cons: -Not a traditional profile for arts I have studied (but right now, Sensei isn't looking) -Potentially less durable? I'm unsure how the balance of less material vs. more forgiving steel plays out. -Mall-ninja appeal? I am unclear if actual practitioners of Japanese Kenjutsu, Iaido, or Battoujutsu would consider such a thing. Between the two, I am leaning towards the Munetoshi due to weight, but I am less familiar with 1075 spring steel. All thoughts welcome, be they on the blade profile, different steels of these examples, comments on quality of each manufacturer, etc.
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Post by noktorn on May 18, 2021 3:46:57 GMT
Not a practitioner, new to Japanese sword (at least non-Japanese Katana, at the moment) collecting, and no expert. But I do own an Unokubi Zukuri from Lyuesword (https://lyuesword.com/products/full-hand-forge-japanese-sword-damascus-steel-samurai-katana-clay-tempered-blade-razor-sharp).
It's an extremely light blade, and it feels effortless to move around. That being said, as much as i'm happy with the gamble I took, I would not feel comfortable taking it to anything heavier than a thin Tatami mat roll. Then again, my unokubi zukuri is not a Hanwei Raptor, or Munetoshi. Plus mine is folded, so that also affects how comfortable I am with taking it to something heavy.
In regards to your budget, have you considered a Huawei Unokubi Zukuri? They have a $199 TH one made out 9260, and a DH T10 version for $270 (Alientude did a review on this one. It's in video form on youtube and I believe he posted it in the reviews section). Huawei is all the rage these days. Maybe consider one of those? Although I haven't seen much on their $199 TH 9260 stuff. Otherwise Hanwei is known for the consistent quality.
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Post by Murffy on May 18, 2021 17:46:08 GMT
The Raptor, I know, is going to be a good cutter and tough. I own the wakizashi and have handled it pretty roughly without issue. If the zombie apocalypse comes, it'd be a good weapon to have. The Munetoshi looks tempting, though, but maybe a bit of a gamble.
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Post by vidar on May 18, 2021 19:00:12 GMT
I looked it up in “the connoisseurs book of Japanese swords”. So the Unokubi is a variation of the Kanmuri-Otoshi style, which was often seen in swords made in Yamato province in the early Kamakura period. The main difference between the two styles is in the Kissaki: the kanmuri otoshi terminates like a Shobu zukuri while the Unokubi has a kissaki that’s similar to a normal shinogi zukuri profile. I suppose that this makes it more suitable for thrusting.
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Post by randomnobody on May 18, 2021 19:22:56 GMT
I believe the sugata was most popular among naginata, less-so in swords. Lots of naginata were later turned into swords though.
Were we still trying to convince you to NOT buy one, or have we shifted to "Buy this one" now?
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AJGBlack
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"This world will stress you like Orson Wells on the radio." -RTJ
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Post by AJGBlack on May 18, 2021 19:55:23 GMT
I looked it up in “the connoisseurs book of Japanese swords”. So the Unokubi is a variation of the Kanmuri-Otoshi style, which was often seen in swords made in Yamato province in the early Kamakura period. The main difference between the two styles is in the Kissaki: the kanmuri otoshi terminates like a Shobu zukuri while the Unokubi has a kissaki that’s similar to a normal shinogi zukuri profile. I suppose that this makes it more suitable for thrusting. I'm a big fan of kanmuri otoshi. I've been tempted to get a Raptor unokubi and find someone to grind it into a kanmuri. Since it's through hardened there's no hamon to worry about.
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tera
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Post by tera on May 18, 2021 22:55:35 GMT
I believe the sugata was most popular among naginata, less-so in swords. Lots of naginata were later turned into swords though. Were we still trying to convince you to NOT buy one, or have we shifted to "Buy this one" now? I'm not inclined to impulse buy, so I was definitely seeking input both pro and con. The main reason I'm contemplating it is the design is purportedly very agile and light, which would suit my kata well, but people have also done tatami cutting reviews with both of the above models with surprisingly decent success. As a newbie to shinken I probably have some bizarre questions and ideas about things. So, yes, I am looking for something to occasionally cut tatami with, but also something that may be more comfortable for kata. Some of the "mat cutters" I see out there are so thick from edge to spine they look like elongated machette. That is not something I'm after for Iai. While interested based on reviews and vidoes, I also noticed a lot of water bottle cutting and some cringy form. Sword of this style only shown to break in one review video, and he tries to hack theough thick bone and flesh. That's dotanuki territory. Just tatami for me. No fruit, water bottles, or pork boots.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on May 19, 2021 0:27:17 GMT
Pros: -purportedly very light. Practical for an older practitioner with a nagging shoulder injury. -Supposedly very agile and fast, nice for Iai in theory. Note that the Raptor isn't light. True, the Raptor Unokubi Zukuri is lighter than most of the other Raptor katanas (the Moroha Zukuri is lighter, and the others are heavier), but it isn't what I would call light. It's over 2.5lb. Some other Hanwei offering are much lighter (Practical Light Katana, Practical Katana Classic, Practical Plus Katana Classic, Mokko Renshu Katana with Bo-Hi, The Munetoshi is light, just under 2lb.
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Post by randomnobody on May 19, 2021 0:29:56 GMT
I'm honestly not sure if the sugata difference accounts for noticable change in weight or balance between given sword models. It all depends on the combination of other dimensions.
I've posted before a comparison of my two antique wakizashi, one shinogi-zukuri, one naginata-naoshi. I'm unsure, by memory, whether the naoshi is unukubi or kanmuri. Both blades share the same nagasa, and are very close in width, but the naoshi outweighs the shinogi-zukuri by a few ounces.
Any well-made sword of good steel should be just as capable of cutting the same things as any other. Unokubi-zukuri just trades full-length bohi for a transition to high-shinogi shoubu-zukuri. Perhaps the blade is thinner in the monouchi, perhaps not. It may be that it is thinner, but the width is greater, so it samw amount of mass remains.
Everything is case-by-case and no two swords from the same model line are identical, so it's almost impossible to compare two different models reliably without having one or more of each in hand.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2021 3:40:32 GMT
As I am learning more about what is out there and looking for a first shinken for light cutting, I keep noticing this particular blade design. Hanwei makes a Raptor in this style (5160 mono) and Munetoshi makes a Viper in this syle (1075 mono). Hanwei Raptor Unokubi Zukuri: www.swordnarmory.com/new/raptor-katana-unokubi-zukuri-by-paul-chen-cas-hanwei/Munetoshi Viper: www.swordnarmory.com/munetoshi-viper-unokubi-zukuri-katana-1075-spring-steel-samurai-sword-katatemaki/Both are a little above my $300 budget, but after a recent health scare I realized I can't take it with me. Pros: -purportedly very light. Practical for an older practitioner with a nagging shoulder injury. -Supposedly very agile and fast, nice for Iai in theory. -Both rated for light cutting and both of some grade of through hardened spring steel. Cons: -Not a traditional profile for arts I have studied (but right now, Sensei isn't looking) -Potentially less durable? I'm unsure how the balance of less material vs. more forgiving steel plays out. -Mall-ninja appeal? I am unclear if actual practitioners of Japanese Kenjutsu, Iaido, or Battoujutsu would consider such a thing. Between the two, I am leaning towards the Munetoshi due to weight, but I am less familiar with 1075 spring steel. All thoughts welcome, be they on the blade profile, different steels of these examples, comments on quality of each manufacturer, etc. If it makes you happy, then who cares. True it cannot be taken with you, but given our limited time on this earth, considering eternity or just how long the Earth has been around. When your time comes, leave it to a friend or relative. 😻
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Post by tommyh on Jun 16, 2021 16:43:49 GMT
I would lean towards Munetoshi as well, but moreso because I would lean away from the Raptor. I briefly owned an unokubi Raptor and in my experience the Raptor line may suffer the worst from the "Hanwei Axe Handle" stereotype. I have small hands, and it was legitimately uncomfortable for me to handle.
I think the Raptor is probably a better bet for a more robust sword (it didn't get its reputation for nothing), but just from the pictures, the Munetoshi looks leagues more handle-able.
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tera
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Post by tera on Jun 16, 2021 17:30:50 GMT
Thank you for the input on your experience with the Raptor line. I believe I have decided on the Munetoshi Viper in through hardened 9260, it just seems to currently be out of stock.
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 16, 2021 20:53:30 GMT
Thank you for the input on your experience with the Raptor line. I believe I have decided on the Munetoshi Viper in through hardened 9260, it just seems to currently be out of stock. You might consider this one; different tip geometry though. But i LOVE mine - super light and agile, and it came scarely sharp! www.huaweiswords.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=20_27&product_id=57
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tera
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Post by tera on Jun 16, 2021 23:57:21 GMT
Unless I'm confused, Kogarasu-Maru Kissaki Moroha Zukuri has a partial double edge for the last several centimeters of the blade, right? No noto I've been trained to do would result in anything less than bloodloss if I tried to use one of those.
I like the look, I like Huawei quality and price, I am amazed it is in stock, but I think it'd be like the famous Red Rider BB gun in my hands. I'd cut my thumb off.
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 17, 2021 8:01:50 GMT
Unless I'm confused, Kogarasu-Maru Kissaki Moroha Zukuri has a partial double edge for the last several centimeters of the blade, right? No noto I've been trained to do would result in anything less than bloodloss if I tried to use one of those. I like the look, I like Huawei quality and price, I am amazed it is in stock, but I think it'd be like the famous Red Rider BB gun in my hands. I'd cut my thumb off. As a matter of fact the false edge here starts right after fuller and is hellish sharp the whole way to the tip...
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Post by vidar on Jun 18, 2021 13:34:36 GMT
I think this style was historically only used on tanto, not katana.
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AJGBlack
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"This world will stress you like Orson Wells on the radio." -RTJ
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Post by AJGBlack on Jun 18, 2021 13:57:38 GMT
I think this style was historically only used on tanto, not katana. The most famous example is a tachi that Bugei did a replica of. It's definitely not common, but it's cool.
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 18, 2021 14:52:52 GMT
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Post by vidar on Jun 18, 2021 22:32:33 GMT
Ok, interesting, thanks for sharing those links!
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Post by Dandelion on Jun 18, 2021 22:39:44 GMT
Ok, interesting, thanks for sharing those links! Dō itashi mashite, gaijin-san!
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