|
Post by commandpostman1969 on May 17, 2021 23:50:23 GMT
Here is what I believe to be a 1767 French Hussar Sabre. This was picked up in New Orleans before WW2 and given to my Dad as a play toy. I have been trying to find out about this type of Sabre but they seem to be fairly uncommon. I am looking for any information about the history, production numbers, value, etc. This is outside my main area of collecting. V/R Chris
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on May 18, 2021 22:54:19 GMT
It looks like a French Revolution period regulation Hussar sabre. I cannot see exactly, but to me it looks like the ring mounts on the scabbard have different designs. Also the leather straps are not original but new, with modern pins. Maybe the scabbard is not from the period at all. The state of the leather seems off. I smell Indian, with those two lines on either side. The scabbard should be wood covered with leather. This one looks floppy. On the ricasso, the upper blade or the spine there should be some small stamps, maybe on the hilt parts some inspection stamps too, if the sabre was made at Klingenthal, or a small Versailles stamp on the upper blade. Have the impression the blade tip was shortened too. Normally the scabbard is about 1 to 1.5cm longer than the blade. I dunno. Have mixed feelings about this one. Something is not right. And when I get those vibes, I run. Sold at Christies. Look at the leather. Sold at Catawiki as M1777 Hussar sabre Rev. Period. For 600 Euro. The one from Christies I would buy in a jiffy. It also has the Versailles stamp right under the langet. The Catawiki sabre on the other hand looks like it has the typical too fat Made in India bronze hilt parts mounted on an old (?) blade. Cannot really see. The seller made sure the light was bad enoug. Another reason to run.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 19, 2021 12:07:16 GMT
It looks like a French Revolution period regulation Hussar sabre. I cannot see exactly, but to me it looks like the ring mounts on the scabbard have different designs. Also the leather straps are not original but new, with modern pins. Maybe the scabbard is not from the period at all. The state of the leather seems off. I smell Indian, with those two lines on either side. The scabbard should be wood covered with leather. This one looks floppy. On the ricasso, the upper blade or the spine there should be some small stamps, maybe on the hilt parts some inspection stamps too, if the sabre was made at Klingenthal, or a small Versailles stamp on the upper blade. Have the impression the blade tip was shortened too. Normally the scabbard is about 1 to 1.5cm longer than the blade. I dunno. Have mixed feelings about this one. Something is not right. And when I get those vibes, I run. Sold at Christies. Look at the leather. Sold at Catawiki as M1777 Hussar sabre Rev. Period. For 600 Euro. The one from Christies I would buy in a jiffy. It also has the Versailles stamp right under the langet. The Catawiki sabre on the other hand looks like it has the typical too fat Made in India bronze hilt parts mounted on an old (?) blade. Cannot really see. The seller made sure the light was bad enoug. Another reason to run. "This was picked up in New Orleans before WW2 and given to my Dad as a play toy."
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on May 20, 2021 21:22:47 GMT
Sure.
Suddenly stories make a sabre 100% genuine? Come on Edelweiss. Of all people you should know better. I react to what I think I see and I am honest about that. Very bad pictures I might add do not help. Stories, true or not (who's to say?), are of no consequence when evaluating an object. Never. Not in my book at least.
Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by bas on May 20, 2021 22:01:33 GMT
Stories, true or not (who's to say?), are of no consequence when evaluating an object. Never. Not in my book at least. My father was a juniour officer in the merchant marine in the '60s based out of Hong Kong. As we grew up he would tell us stories of pirates in gunboats and how he once hit a whale. As young boys who were we to question them?
It wasn't until I was in my twenties that he came out and told us that none of it ever happened. His time at sea was mostly uneventful and he was ill-suited to the job because of his poor night vision and retired fairly early.
Sometimes family stories just have a way of getting away from themselves. So as Uhlan says, buy the sword, not the story.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2021 3:33:55 GMT
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on May 21, 2021 8:51:58 GMT
Well, sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/64238/1700-napoleon-french-hussar-sabre is an interesting thread all by itself, but there is nothing there to change my mind. No hard facts like stamps to determine the blade, hilt and scabbard were made in France or Solingen or India have come to the fore. No detailed pictures of the scabbard leather which still looks more like Made in India with those two rolled lines in the leather versus the Christies picture that shows how it should look like and so on. Would also like to see the inside of the mouth piece and wear on outside of same, the state and position of the washer or what is left of it, an image of the drag proper (both sides) to see how it was soldered, is the scabbard floppy or a wood core and leather cover affair, a better view of the scabbard furniture and damage, the state of wear on the rings, has the blade distal taper (?) with the numbers presented, how is the ricasso/fuller start formed, detailed images of blade corrosion and so on and all of this shot in good (day) light so one may actually see what is going on. The OP may be in good faith, who's to know? All I know for sure at this point is that something about that scabbard is making me prick up my ears. And in this business that's never a good sign.
Cheers.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 21, 2021 14:54:51 GMT
Imo, your determination that only one scabbard example lasted forty years is flawed, in and of itself. Your often taking critique to an extreme is noted.
Good for you.
|
|
|
Post by bas on Jun 7, 2021 0:34:53 GMT
Taking another look at this sword, I think it’s a reproduction blade going by how the fuller terminates at the tip. There is too much meat there. It should be coming to a flat face with barely a transition.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 0:41:28 GMT
For one, I know my own father wasn't a storyteller.
|
|
|
Post by bas on Jun 7, 2021 0:58:15 GMT
For one, I know my own father wasn't a storyteller. Good for you!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 1:11:21 GMT
For one, I know my own father wasn't a storyteller. Good for you! Secondly, it is quite hard to determine distal in a profile shot, particularly in lacking pictures. Finally, two of you have summarily called the poster and source liars. My take is that asking for more information might make for a less contentious and more polite interaction with a newcomer. SBG is super for depressing any value as a venue for information. Don't mind me, you can all surely do without my time. Cheers GC
|
|
|
Post by bas on Jun 7, 2021 1:25:15 GMT
Wow!
Who’s calling anyone a liar? All I said is that stories can take on a life of their own, which needs to be taken into consideration. Without any supporting evidence, it is just a story, nothing less and certainly nothing more.
You’re taking this far too personally GC.
The OP presented a sword along with the facts as he understood them. I certainly have not called him or his father a liar, besides I’m sure he’s a big enough boy to stand up for himself if he decides to take offence at my comments.
As for the distal taper, yes there is variation in these blades but I’ve just had a second look at my (admittedly limited) research photos and they do show a much smoother transition from fuller to tip.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 1:27:34 GMT
By your judgement, this is a fake as well.
|
|
|
Post by bas on Jun 7, 2021 1:29:46 GMT
Sure GC, what ever makes you happy. You have more experience than me so you know the idiocy of your post.
Sorry you got butt hurt.
Have a lovely day.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 1:47:45 GMT
No one is butt hurt but your juvenile response. I'm not taking this personally at all. I am simply looking at responses as the poster might.
You did imply the poster was as likely to be misinformed by a father who offered fairy tales of grandeur. You didn't ask for more information, you posted an informed opinion. Since we are not looking at a sword for sale, the whole determination that it must be a reproduction is simply jaw dropping to me, time and again at SBG.
IMO, simply posting it must be a Knights of Columbus sword might have been a better response (kidding but not really).
Have a good one. GC
|
|
Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
|
Post by Uhlan on Jun 7, 2021 8:08:11 GMT
Nobody is implying anything at all. Nobody is calling the OP, nor his father, a liar. Case closed.
What I tried to do in my response is giving a kind of shortlist of things to look for so the OP can evaluate what he has a bit better. Having only a story to go by is not the best way. Sometimes stories pan out, sometimes they do not, but either way the OP has to have some parameters, some tools to find out what is what. The best way is to have a bunch of facts to sort through, most certainly when the question of an objects value is asked. Now, the OP could have reacted and give us more info. Could have worked through the list so to say. But there is no reaction at all and that gives me the impression that something else may be going on here. Over these, what?, two years or something, I think I detected a sudden influx of one post wonders asking us to evaluate their stuff. Nothing wrong with that in principle but on the other hand I have this notion that some people have worked out that posting a request on SBG is much cheaper than having to pay a certified dealer for said info. Nothing wrong with that, but it gives me the idea, in some instances, we are being used. A quick run to SBG for info and off (to Ebay?) to sell. I for one do not like that at all. Other fora have this strict rule to try to sort genuine OP's from the ,,make a quick buck'' types and that is to never allow asking forum members to put a price on their objects, nor answering such questions. Maybe that does work. I do not know. I am all for helping people out and I am willing to put some time in it too, but this has to go both ways. If an OP is genuine and really interested this ,,working through the shortlist'' should not be problematic but kinda fun. Other members on this forum may want to react in other ways. Good for them.
Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by bas on Jun 7, 2021 10:38:47 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 12:27:37 GMT
"Note that there are many variations that span 50 of years" Ya think? How many reproductions showing faults you see? As to the scabbard, look at the Christie scabbard again. Whatever guys. If it was felt to be a hit&run, why bother to reply at all? Then, in replying, start with the same auction as an example, kind of indicating little further knowledge aside from an impression. I'm not fond of offering monetary evaluations but one in ten might be someone that will stick around. Sure, ignore "the story" but why belabor it. Thanks for the examples. I've read recently of a better book list than relying on the Jean L’Hoste books, I'll see if I can find Maxine's list on facebook. French is not my primary study either and why I had bothered to recommend the fellow post here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2021 18:20:45 GMT
From elsewhere this morning
I REALLY wish I had Aries!!! the whole set, but then.............. As such, information on French swords to me is pretty much a 'working' familiarity.
In my opinion, this is (though crude) too attentive to nuance to be a reproduction, and the scabbard the same, too well done for India's modern commerce. With that, I had no idea India produced repros of European, especially French, swords, but I am sure there will be a fusillade of entries roaring that is WAY wrong.
While the majority of arms production in both France and England was somewhat controlled with the 'official' government venues of production, these were 'revolutionary' times, and impending war between England and France imminent. I would tend to think there were contractors and cutlers outside those channels who produced ersatz arms for the 'cause'(s). In England I have read that various craftsmen took on 'cutler' work outside their normal scope, silversmiths making munitions grade arms etc. in these pre Napoleonic times.
In that circumstance, I recall during Vietnam, after discharge, I was working at an electronics factory where they had retooled to produce 105mm Howitzer ammunition, 30,000 units per day. During WWII, appliance factories were producing bombers and ordnance.
Thats just my take, perhaps a saber in the French 'manner' for a unit of possibly militia or other local para military?
Complete with a story from a long time story teller
|
|