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Post by Riprock on May 4, 2021 2:18:45 GMT
Hello all - long time lurker, first time posting a question.
Here it goes: I love swords and always have wanted something "special". I am in a very interesting position where cost is not really an issue. I have been monitoring some sites from Japan where there are antique swords and recently two have caught my interest - one is about $19k, and the other $8k (both several hundred years old).
I have also looked for higher end swords and found some on SkyJiro/Golden Mountain.
The are and history of the the Japanese swords are very interesting, but I am worried that I dont know how to tell if they have been polished many times and would they even be functional (I know they are art, but I would want it to be real). Or does non of that matter and buying a sword from SJ (Ume Blossom) better because it is functional.
I dont want to cut soda 2L with a $20k sword, but I want to know that I "could".
Any thoughts?
Is all of this thinking wrong? What would some of you do with a $20k+ Budget?
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Post by nebulatech on May 4, 2021 3:06:16 GMT
Congratulations on your windfall! Why not buy the masterpiece AND a not so good sword, to learn how to cut? Whether you want a nice really modern blade, or a ww2 era gendaito, you could get this piece for around $1500, then spend a little time choosing the more expensive blade.
When choosing a really old katana, and you seem to already realize this, it is like a museum piece, a historical treasure. I don't really know the ramifications for a blade to be "tired", but I'm sure any old nihonto with reasonable polish can still cut in an emergency, but none of them will likely get through an entire zombie apocalypse. It's my understanding that no traditional Japanese blade will hold up to endless battles without frequent polishing, and that's probably true of their modern reproduction counterparts. Of course, I could be wrong and happily accept any correction.
Again, if possible, I recommend buying 2 blades. Otherwise, the temptation to swing around the masterpiece may get the best of you. It would me...
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Post by MichaelRS on May 4, 2021 3:40:08 GMT
What would some of you do with a $20k+ Budget? High-end hookers in Vegas. Although all things considered these days, I would probably give out before the money did 😄 Anyway, just kidding. I do actually have something useful to add. I don't know, but I'm left with the impression that such sword sales from Japan are highly regulated and that there would be some sort of certification coming with the blade related to its condition. Yes, no, maybe? Out of curiosity, are you looking for the combination art, history and cool blade or just a cool blade. Both would actually appeal to me, but my dream kind of these days is to eventually have enough money for one of those hand forged L6 blades by the American guy...whose name I forget at the moment, but he's very well know. Apparently just not to me 🙄 And of course with having a Japanese blade there are bragging rights, but based on my research or the last month I'm left with the impression that there are much better blades for the zombie apocalypse out there than the traditional Japanese ones.
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Post by Lord Newport on May 4, 2021 3:42:51 GMT
What would some of you do with a $20k+ Budget? High-end hookers in Vegas. Although all things considered these days, I would probably give out before the money did 😄 Anyway, just kidding. I do actually have something useful to add. I don't know, but I'm left with the impression that such sword sales from Japan are highly regulated and that there would be some sort of certification coming with the blade related to its condition. Yes, no, maybe? Out of curiosity, are you looking for the combination art, history and cool blade or just a cool blade. Both would actually appeal to me, but my dream kind of these days is to eventually have enough money for one of those hand forged L6 blades by the American guy...whose name I forget at the moment, but he's very well know. Apparently just not to me 🙄
And of course with having a Japanese blade there are bragging rights, but based on my research or the last month I'm left with the impression that there are much better blades for the zombie apocalypse out there than the traditional Japanese ones. Howard Clark...
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Post by Lord Newport on May 4, 2021 3:44:52 GMT
Hello all - long time lurker, first time posting a question. Here it goes: I love swords and always have wanted something "special". I am in a very interesting position where cost is not really an issue. I have been monitoring some sites from Japan where there are antique swords and recently two have caught my interest - one is about $19k, and the other $8k (both several hundred years old). I have also looked for higher end swords and found some on SkyJiro/Golden Mountain. The are and history of the the Japanese swords are very interesting, but I am worried that I dont know how to tell if they have been polished many times and would they even be functional (I know they are art, but I would want it to be real). Or does non of that matter and buying a sword from SJ (Ume Blossom) better because it is functional. I dont want to cut soda 2L with a $20k sword, but I want to know that I "could". Any thoughts? Is all of this thinking wrong? What would some of you do with a $20k+ Budget? Use an American expert in the field, located here in America, to act as your agent...I recommend Ted Tenold without hesitation... www.legacyswords.com/about.html
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Post by bradc on May 4, 2021 4:17:37 GMT
Your budget could accommodate a nice antique, but if you ever want to actually swing it around a new sword might be a better choice. At $20k you are comfortably into a full custom modern Japanese made sword. Many dealers can help you with the commission process if you go this route. Here are two: Tozando tozandoshop.com/pages/shinsakuto-a-new-made-to-order-katanaAoi Budogu budo-aoi.com/collections/all-collections(It's not on their website, but when I last spoke with them they could help commission, they also had a couple in stock antiques in your price range) If you want some.eye candy antiques these sites always has great photography. yuhindo.com/swords-for-sale/ www.aoijapan.com/ nihontoantiques.com/Aoi art swords come with wonderful oshigata btw. I would also suggest joining some of the Facebook nihonto groups. There are plenty of poor value swords out there with price tags well over 20k. Being an informed customer is your best bet for a satisfying purchase.
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Post by Riprock on May 4, 2021 9:44:26 GMT
Great responses guys, awesome. I had not considered and agent or having a custom piece - thats awesome. I collect cars/watches/art/bourbon but there is no where to find anything out about swords. Having a "beater" also is a good idea (SkyJiro?). I have looked at the links you have all provided - massive help.
One thing that is kinda creepy but also kind of cool is the "cut test" registered on of the swords. Were these tests done on alive or dead people? If it was someone who was living I dont know if I could buy it.
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Post by Riprock on May 4, 2021 9:46:15 GMT
Your budget could accommodate a nice antique, but if you ever want to actually swing it around a new sword might be a better choice. At $20k you are comfortably into a full custom modern Japanese made sword. Many dealers can help you with the commission process if you go this route. Here are two: Tozando tozandoshop.com/pages/shinsakuto-a-new-made-to-order-katanaAoi Budogu budo-aoi.com/collections/all-collections(It's not on their website, but when I last spoke with them they could help commission, they also had a couple in stock antiques in your price range) If you want some.eye candy antiques these sites always has great photography. yuhindo.com/swords-for-sale/ www.aoijapan.com/ nihontoantiques.com/Aoi art swords come with wonderful oshigata btw. I would also suggest joining some of the Facebook nihonto groups. There are plenty of poor value swords out there with price tags well over 20k. Being an informed customer is your best bet for a satisfying purchase. Thats why I lurk on this forum. I literally pour through info, check the classifieds etc looking for discussions but I dont see many discussions on this topic.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on May 4, 2021 14:55:54 GMT
What are the swords you are interested in? And what drew you towards those two specific swords?
20,000 is a very good budget for a purchase. However it is important to know what you are buying and why. People have various tastes and different things will appeal to different people.
I can second the recommendation for Ted. He is a great guy and most likely could help you secure an item you want and help and guide you in the process.
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Post by Murffy on May 4, 2021 15:49:47 GMT
I currently dink around with mostly sturdy, well reviewed blades under $400. At some point, I may up the budget when it dawns on me what top-of-the-line sword I really want. Handling different weapons has been kind of a process of discovering what I like. Forking out big money without doing that may lead to an expensive disappointment.
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Post by pellius on May 4, 2021 15:56:49 GMT
I currently dink around with mostly sturdy, well reviewed blades under $400. At some point, I may up the budget when it dawns on me what top-of-the-line sword I really want. Handling different weapons has been kind of a process of discovering what I like. Forking out big money without doing that may lead to an expensive disappointment. I would second this as a general rule. This process not only helped me avoid a lot of disappointment, it helped me identify my own specific preferences and more fully appreciate the few pricier swords I’ve managed to acquire. Still, if there can be only one, hiring a consultant/agent seems to be a sound strategy. Congrats on your good fortune. Good hunting!
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on May 4, 2021 17:14:50 GMT
I’d go along with Murffy. A lower end sword, not junk, will help greatly allowing to learn will be of benefit; letting you learn what to do and more importantly not to do. While, for example a $2,000 katana is prestigious and a beauty to behold it might be considered an expensive wall hanger. If you take it out and use it is going to show at least scratches and lose some of its eye appeal and value. As for a $19K antique to cut bottles-no. Personally I’d get a sub $300 sword to get my feet wet and at the same time find an investment broker for the balance after taking out perhaps a grand for mad money.
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Post by vidar on May 6, 2021 19:05:14 GMT
About Skyjiro… don’t waste your money on them. There are some threads here on the forum about their fraudulent practices. Apart from that, even if they would be honest, their ‘high end’ swords are still not worth the money. They’re a bad investment, there’s no way you would get your money back if you would ever sell it.
Since you have a really nice budget, buy a Nihonto for appreciation and a high quality modern sword like Motohara for training. Both will be a good investment.
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Post by swordenthusiast on May 6, 2021 23:22:52 GMT
With that budget, I would commission an authentic tamahagane Shinken out of Japan. However, I would also never imagine swinging the sword unless the situation was dire to do so. If you do go this route, I would recommend someone like tozandoshop.com/pages/shinsakuto-a-new-made-to-order-katana. Depending on how high end you go, given the price starts at $7,500, you might be able to get this and a practice sword you could swing at a 2L soda bottle if desired.
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Post by swordenthusiast on May 6, 2021 23:44:45 GMT
Great responses guys, awesome. I had not considered and agent or having a custom piece - thats awesome. I collect cars/watches/art/bourbon but there is no where to find anything out about swords. Having a "beater" also is a good idea (SkyJiro?). I have looked at the links you have all provided - massive help. One thing that is kinda creepy but also kind of cool is the "cut test" registered on of the swords. Were these tests done on alive or dead people? If it was someone who was living I dont know if I could buy it. For a beater, here are a couple of options: www.chenessinc.com/kaze.htmwww.kultofathena.com/product/hanwei-practical-plus-xl-katana/
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Deleted
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Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2021 6:04:22 GMT
Hello all - long time lurker, first time posting a question. Here it goes: I love swords and always have wanted something "special". I am in a very interesting position where cost is not really an issue. I have been monitoring some sites from Japan where there are antique swords and recently two have caught my interest - one is about $19k, and the other $8k (both several hundred years old). I have also looked for higher end swords and found some on SkyJiro/Golden Mountain. The are and history of the the Japanese swords are very interesting, but I am worried that I dont know how to tell if they have been polished many times and would they even be functional (I know they are art, but I would want it to be real). Or does non of that matter and buying a sword from SJ (Ume Blossom) better because it is functional. I dont want to cut soda 2L with a $20k sword, but I want to know that I "could". Any thoughts? Is all of this thinking wrong? What would some of you do with a $20k+ Budget? I would love to have the money and legal ability to buy a high end sword. 😻
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Post by Ari M. on May 8, 2021 3:45:04 GMT
If you haven't visited their site already, the Usagiya sword shop is a great resource with lots of pictures (just click on Information and read through the various topics). They also make shinsakuto if that's the route you end up going.
If you're looking for an actual book, I like Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords (Martin, Nakahara).
And of course you could spends hours trawling through the vast collective knowledge of the more Nihonto-oriented forums. (: With a bit of common sense and just a bit of research you should easily avoid a problematic purchase. It helps also to deal with one of the larger reputable sellers. No steals to be had but they'll make sure you're fully aware of exactly what you're buying.
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tera
Moderator
Posts: 1,654
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Post by tera on May 9, 2021 20:17:46 GMT
This may seem a little off topic, but I think is worth mentioning to the original poster. My apologies in advance if the OP is already a well-trained individual.
It sounds like History and preservation of Art are very important to you. You also would like what you buy to be useful and functional. May I suggest you invest your $20,000 slightly differently?
Start with buying a decent iaito (unedged), budget $800 or so and you can get one that is hand forged, clay tempered, has real same, tight leather ito, and iron fittings. Budget $2-$5k for a newly forged shinken (edged blade) by one of the premier, living smiths. Before you spend any of that, though. Start by spending the rest of the money investing in you.
Find a kenjutsu school that appeals to your sensibilities. It doesn't have to be koryu, but if you like preserving History that may be a good fit for you. Your Sensei will educate you on the History of their art, the shape/geometry/style of sword traditionally used by practitioners of that art, and can help determine proper blade dimensions to "fit" you as an individual. The remaining sum of your budget will pay for a lot of time in the Dojo, even if there are some travel expenses.
Train, train, train with that Iaito until you and your Sensei agree you are ready for tameshigiri. By then YOU will know the requirements of the sword to have custom made to best fit you as an individual swordsman. Buy your Shinken and begin training with a live blade.
This way, you become the History. You become the Art. A sword is only as functional as the competency of the wielder. While you won't own a sword that has been around for hundreds of years, you may be able to pass on the Art yourself one day and leave your sword to a decendent. That sword's wear and tear will tell of YOUR history as a swordsman, and practitioner of a historical Japanese sword school.
As someone who studied young and is feeling his age, I can say there is an immodest comfort in knowing "these hands remember" something others only dream of. The day will come when I can no longer practice, but I will cherish my time in the dojo more than any object I could buy. What's more, I have had students in a non-sword art. The feeling of continuation and legacy, knowing some of them now have their own schools, is great feeling.
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