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Post by nddave on Apr 28, 2021 17:44:36 GMT
Hi everybody,
I posted a new review today, this one on the Hanwei Iga Ninja-To. Has been awhile since I reviewed a Ninja-To, actually my first ever review posted here was in fact on a SnA Ninja-To, lol! Let me know what you guys think.
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Post by Kane Shen on May 1, 2021 2:01:55 GMT
Hi everybody, I posted a new review today, this one on the Hanwei Iga Ninja-To. Has been awhile since I reviewed a Ninja-To, actually my first ever review posted here was in fact on a SnA Ninja-To, lol! Let me know what you guys think. Interesting and detailed review, Dave! Would also love to see you cut with this sword!
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Post by nddave on May 1, 2021 2:34:49 GMT
Hi everybody, I posted a new review today, this one on the Hanwei Iga Ninja-To. Has been awhile since I reviewed a Ninja-To, actually my first ever review posted here was in fact on a SnA Ninja-To, lol! Let me know what you guys think. Interesting and detailed review, Dave! Would also love to see you cut with this sword! Thanks, yea cutting will be this summer have something big in the near future that will take precedence on the channel in the next month or so.
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Post by hoshioni on May 2, 2021 5:51:35 GMT
ninja swords are my go to, am looking for one where the spine isnt distilled tapered. ive noticed shinwa, musa are distill tapering katanas.
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Post by Kane Shen on May 2, 2021 16:13:27 GMT
ninja swords are my go to, am looking for one where the spine isnt distilled tapered. ive noticed shinwa, musa are distill tapering katanas. You mean “distally tapered”? Actual swords are supposed to be distally tapered, otherwise it’s just a crowbar. There are plenty of cheapo stainless wallhangers made in the 80s that don’t incorporate distal tapering, since people soon figured it out, even the very low end of the functional swords nowadays feature distal tapering. That said, Japanese swords usually feature less distal tapering than European swords, Chinese swords, Indian swords, etc. Even near the tip the spine of a katana is relatively thick because the bevel starts all the from the spine to edge. Among katanas, some feature a greater degree of distal tapering than others, but they always have some distal taper.
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Post by hoshioni on May 3, 2021 2:10:43 GMT
ninja swords are my go to, am looking for one where the spine isnt distilled tapered. ive noticed shinwa, musa are distill tapering katanas. You mean “distally tapered”? Ok anyway you can show me this aspect on the sword your reviewing. Ill agree to disagree on your stance of katana swords. as perhaps the ones ive found lately are just exceptionally overdone.but ive owned katana where it was either not noticable. As I personally prefer heavier swords.
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Post by nddave on May 3, 2021 3:20:46 GMT
You mean “distally tapered”? Ok anyway you can show me this aspect on the sword your reviewing. Ill agree to disagree on your stance of katana swords. as perhaps the ones ive found lately are just exceptionally overdone.but ive owned katana where it was either not noticable. As I personally prefer heavier swords. That's the thing though, over built or "over done" doesn't neccesarily mean it will more durable or strong. It just means it will be over built and can potentially be heavier or potentially flawed. Most cheaper swords are made this way to compensate for a weaker heat treatment or poor forging. It takes skill and attention to detail to have such a tapering sword in either distal or profile taper, be as equally durable and strong as something over built and thick like you're expressing. A proper sword forged and heat treated by a skilled Smith will out perform any over built sword thick in profile to compensate for the lack of proper shape, termination and skill of forging. Thanks for watching my video and enjoying it!
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Post by hoshioni on May 3, 2021 4:52:07 GMT
Ok anyway you can show me this aspect on the sword your reviewing. Ill agree to disagree on your stance of katana swords. as perhaps the ones ive found lately are just exceptionally overdone.but ive owned katana where it was either not noticable. As I personally prefer heavier swords. That's the thing though, over built or "over done" doesn't neccesarily mean it will more durable or strong. It just means it will be over built and can potentially be heavier or potentially flawed. Most cheaper swords are made this way to compensate for a weaker heat treatment or poor forging. It takes skill and attention to detail to have such a tapering sword in either distal or profile taper, be as equally durable and strong as something over built and thick like you're expressing. A proper sword forged and heat treated by a skilled Smith will out perform any over built sword thick in profile to compensate for the lack of proper shape, termination and skill of forging. Thanks for watching my video and enjoying it! Im In the market for one that can be both. I do feel that a sword thats only 40 inches long can get away with being a little heavier. especially if its got a 2 handed handle. this sword already has a profile taper thats clear to see. to me , a sword that short with both feels redundant.
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Post by Kane Shen on May 3, 2021 5:47:59 GMT
You mean “distally tapered”? Ok anyway you can show me this aspect on the sword your reviewing. Ill agree to disagree on your stance of katana swords. as perhaps the ones ive found lately are just exceptionally overdone.but ive owned katana where it was either not noticable. As I personally prefer heavier swords. It has nothing to do with heavier swords or lighter swords. The definition of swords guarantees you will have less mass near the tip than near the guard. How you use swords, all the techniques across all civilizations ever used swords of any form, demands swords to exist in such a way. This is why you could go to some isolated cultures, and as long as they do use edged weapon above certain blade length, it WILL have a distal taper. Otherwise it's not a sword, but an Olympic barbell, or even the reverse--a baseball bat. Not saying you can't hurt someone with a barbell, it's just not a sword. More than handling characteristics, the distal taper makes sure the edge geometry near the cutting portion of the blade optimized by being thinner and have a bevel angle more conducive to cutting, while making the base thick, which not only shift the balance closer to the hand, but also makes the bigger portion of the blade rigid, so when you swing the sword, the blade wouldn't flop around like a magazine. The phenomenon of not having distally tapered blades on swords is a modern invention, mostly introduced by wallhangers, as by then swords have fallen out of common use in most cultures for some time. Since wallhangers are supposed to be NOT handled, I suppose it's alright if the makers don't have an incentive to make them into actual swords.
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Post by hoshioni on May 3, 2021 6:20:08 GMT
Agian I just wanna see spine profile and judge for myself.
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Post by nddave on May 3, 2021 7:08:01 GMT
That's the thing though, over built or "over done" doesn't neccesarily mean it will more durable or strong. It just means it will be over built and can potentially be heavier or potentially flawed. Most cheaper swords are made this way to compensate for a weaker heat treatment or poor forging. It takes skill and attention to detail to have such a tapering sword in either distal or profile taper, be as equally durable and strong as something over built and thick like you're expressing. A proper sword forged and heat treated by a skilled Smith will out perform any over built sword thick in profile to compensate for the lack of proper shape, termination and skill of forging. Thanks for watching my video and enjoying it! Im In the market for one that can be both. I do feel that a sword thats only 40 inches long can get away with being a little heavier. especially if its got a 2 handed handle. this sword already has a profile taper thats clear to see. to me , a sword that short with both feels redundant. But the question is what's the point? What does the extra weight in your opinion do to benefit the sword? Let's say the durability is already there thanks to skill of forging and heat treatment. With the tapering of the blade, that taper benefits the handling and user's stamina in regards to using the sword for extended periods of time. This is due to a more controllable Point of Balance via weight reduction thanks to the tapering. Without tapering the sword will be heavier thus creating a higher Point of Balance and adding weight. This will reduce the users ability to not only maneuver the sword regarding edge alignment and point control but will wear on stamina creating fatigue. Think of it this way, is it easier swinging a dumbell weighing 2lbs or 4lbs? Which one will wear you out faster? The same can be said for a sword. Add in the precision and speed you need to properly use a sword as well as the extended use a swordsman would experience in either battlefield combat or duels and you'll understand why for centuries swordsmiths worked at getting swords stronger yet lighter. Tapering a blades thickness (distal taper) and at times width (profile taper) were methods to lighten a sword, including advancements in metallurgy and forging that benefited durability and strength of the steel.
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Post by hoshioni on May 3, 2021 7:38:17 GMT
Im In the market for one that can be both. I do feel that a sword thats only 40 inches long can get away with being a little heavier. especially if its got a 2 handed handle. this sword already has a profile taper thats clear to see. to me , a sword that short with both feels redundant. But the question is what's the point? What does the extra weight in your opinion do to benefit the sword? Let's say the durability is already there thanks to skill of forging and heat treatment. With the tapering of the blade, that taper benefits the handling and user's stamina in regards to using the sword for extended periods of time. This is due to a more controllable Point of Balance via weight reduction thanks to the tapering. Without tapering the sword will be heavier thus creating a higher Point of Balance and adding weight. This will reduce the users ability to not only maneuver the sword regarding edge alignment and point control but will wear on stamina creating fatigue. Think of it this way, is it easier swinging a dumbell weighing 2lbs or 4lbs? Which one will wear you out faster? The same can be said for a sword. Add in the precision and speed you need to properly use a sword as well as the extended use a swordsman would experience in either battlefield combat or duels and you'll understand why for centuries swordsmiths worked at getting swords stronger yet lighter. Tapering a blades thickness (distal taper) and at times width (profile taper) were methods to lighten a sword, including advancements in metallurgy and forging that benefited durability and strength of the steel. the power to win faster. also I feel like your not seeing the katanas have profile tapers. Im saying the additional tapering is redundant. also I swing things around much heavier for training. its just a basic principle of the book of 5 rings. just cause you cant handle it. doesnt mean you need project your weakness upon me. not every sword is meant to handle like some rapier. if I cant see the spine thickness for myself then being on this thread is a waste of my time. edit- on a shorter sword the heft isnt as big a deal since its still close to you. now on longer swords yes putting that weight further apart creates unwieldiness.
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Post by markus313 on May 3, 2021 7:42:17 GMT
But the question is what's the point? What does the extra weight in your opinion do to benefit the sword? Let's say the durability is already there thanks to skill of forging and heat treatment. With the tapering of the blade, that taper benefits the handling and user's stamina in regards to using the sword for extended periods of time. This is due to a more controllable Point of Balance via weight reduction thanks to the tapering. Without tapering the sword will be heavier thus creating a higher Point of Balance and adding weight. This will reduce the users ability to not only maneuver the sword regarding edge alignment and point control but will wear on stamina creating fatigue. Think of it this way, is it easier swinging a dumbell weighing 2lbs or 4lbs? Which one will wear you out faster? The same can be said for a sword. Add in the precision and speed you need to properly use a sword as well as the extended use a swordsman would experience in either battlefield combat or duels and you'll understand why for centuries swordsmiths worked at getting swords stronger yet lighter. Tapering a blades thickness (distal taper) and at times width (profile taper) were methods to lighten a sword, including advancements in metallurgy and forging that benefited durability and strength of the steel. the power to win faster. also I feel like your not seeing the katanas have profile tapers. Im saying the additional tapering is redundant. also I swing things around much heavier for training. its just a basic principle of the book of 5 rings. just cause you cant handle it. doesnt mean you need project your weakness upon me. not every sword is meant to handle like some rapier. if I cant see the spine thickness for myself then being on this thread is a waste of my time. Here are some measurements. I think the Iga has the same blade as the Kouga. Attachments:
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Post by hoshioni on May 3, 2021 7:50:26 GMT
the power to win faster. also I feel like your not seeing the katanas have profile tapers. Im saying the additional tapering is redundant. also I swing things around much heavier for training. its just a basic principle of the book of 5 rings. just cause you cant handle it. doesnt mean you need project your weakness upon me. not every sword is meant to handle like some rapier. if I cant see the spine thickness for myself then being on this thread is a waste of my time. Here are some measurements. I think the Iga has the same blade as the Kouga. With this, I can find the answers I seek thank you.
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Post by nddave on May 3, 2021 8:28:30 GMT
But the question is what's the point? What does the extra weight in your opinion do to benefit the sword? Let's say the durability is already there thanks to skill of forging and heat treatment. With the tapering of the blade, that taper benefits the handling and user's stamina in regards to using the sword for extended periods of time. This is due to a more controllable Point of Balance via weight reduction thanks to the tapering. Without tapering the sword will be heavier thus creating a higher Point of Balance and adding weight. This will reduce the users ability to not only maneuver the sword regarding edge alignment and point control but will wear on stamina creating fatigue. Think of it this way, is it easier swinging a dumbell weighing 2lbs or 4lbs? Which one will wear you out faster? The same can be said for a sword. Add in the precision and speed you need to properly use a sword as well as the extended use a swordsman would experience in either battlefield combat or duels and you'll understand why for centuries swordsmiths worked at getting swords stronger yet lighter. Tapering a blades thickness (distal taper) and at times width (profile taper) were methods to lighten a sword, including advancements in metallurgy and forging that benefited durability and strength of the steel. the power to win faster. also I feel like your not seeing the katanas have profile tapers. Im saying the additional tapering is redundant. also I swing things around much heavier for training. its just a basic principle of the book of 5 rings. just cause you cant handle it. doesnt mean you need project your weakness upon me. not every sword is meant to handle like some rapier. if I cant see the spine thickness for myself then being on this thread is a waste of my time. edit- on a shorter sword the heft isnt as big a deal since its still close to you. now on longer swords yes putting that weight further apart creates unwieldiness. Ok I feel this is getting nowhere due to your inexperience on the subject matter. If you feel that strength is the defining factor in swordsmanship then I guess that's that.... Two things before I go, 1) Why do people strength train? Is it only so we can lift heavy things? For example why would the book of 5 rings promote strength training? Could it be maybe that you train with something heavier so you're actual weapon is that much lighter and faster in your hand...? 2) I'm sorry but your view on Rapier being light and frail shows your ignorance and inexperience on the subject. I think you're confused on the difference between a Rapier and a small sword or as they were also known court sword. The Rapier was rather long (average blade length between 36"-42") were average sword weight (2lbs-3lbs) and deadly precise not due to them being light and flimsy but actually being properly tapered and forged. Creating a flexible yet rigid thin blade that is as strong as any longsword or katana but also showing a wicked profile taper as well as steady distal taper bring its point of balance lower to the hilt allowing it to be precisely thrusted. In regards to the court sword or small sword, this sword was simply an evolution to the long cumbersome to carry Rapier to a more shorter and lighter blade to duel with in the 17th and 18th centuries. Again making breakthroughs in metallurgy and forging techniques Creating a small lithe blade that was rigid and durable but also extremely light and lighting fast in the cut and thrust. Good chatting with you have a good night! (And yes the Kouga and Iga Ninja-To share the same DH 1566 blade, only the koshirea are different)
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Post by hoshioni on May 3, 2021 15:56:13 GMT
edit- on a shorter sword the heft isnt as big a deal since its still close to you. now on longer swords yes putting that weight further apart creates unwieldiness. Good chatting with you have a good night! (And yes the Kouga and Iga Ninja-To share the same DH 1566 blade, only the koshirea are different) to strike, strongly at the right time is the basic ideal. technique can only compensate for so much strength. some forms of strength training can get you both speed and power, such as plyometrics. I was referring to the differences in weight distribution. I did not call the sword frail. Im saying that not every sword was meant to have the same design mindset. some can weigh roughly the same and find a way to put a little extra weight near the edge, especially when the emphasis is on slashing. the form of the blade reflects its function.
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Post by nddave on May 3, 2021 16:25:59 GMT
Good chatting with you have a good night! (And yes the Kouga and Iga Ninja-To share the same DH 1566 blade, only the koshirea are different) to strike, strongly at the right time is the basic ideal. technique can only compensate for so much strength. some forms of strength training can get you both speed and power, such as plyometrics. I was referring to the differences in weight distribution. I did not call the sword frail. Im saying that not every sword was meant to have the same design mindset. some can weigh roughly the same and find a way to put a little extra weight near the edge, especially when the emphasis is on slashing. the form of the blade reflects its function. You are correct that the form of blade reflects its function. But there has to be balance and that is what bladesmiths aim for when they make a sword. Extra weight isn't going to do much aside from wear out the user. Nobody wants "dead arm" during a duel or battle. Think about boxers who punch themselves out after exerting too much energy, can't raise their arms to guard let alone jab. Using a sword is no different. If you're gassed you're gassed and the advantage is to the opponent. Swinging a heavy sword is no different than a boxer only throwing Haymakers. Slow to recover from and guard, plus the punch exerts lots of energy. Basically you better land all your haymakers and knock out your opponent fast or you're going to be hurting. A heavy sword isn't going to perform better in cutting simply because it's got more forward pull. Remember there's more to cutting than meeting the target. Edge alignment, proper draw and form, as well as comfortability in handling matter much more than brute force. I've seen and even experienced much cleaner cuts with a properly balanced sword that I'm able to maneuver than I've seen or experienced using something heavier and more forward.
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Post by Kane Shen on May 3, 2021 17:38:05 GMT
Good chatting with you have a good night! (And yes the Kouga and Iga Ninja-To share the same DH 1566 blade, only the koshirea are different) to strike, strongly at the right time is the basic ideal. technique can only compensate for so much strength. some forms of strength training can get you both speed and power, such as plyometrics. I was referring to the differences in weight distribution. I did not call the sword frail. Im saying that not every sword was meant to have the same design mindset. some can weigh roughly the same and find a way to put a little extra weight near the edge, especially when the emphasis is on slashing. the form of the blade reflects its function. I think you do get it about the weight distribution, mostly. It's not about the weight, it's how the weight is distributed along the blade. Imagine you go to the gym to do bench press 255 lbs, using a barbell. Whether it's 2 plates on each side, or 4 plates on 1 side only matters. Because it's related to the mechanics behind the barbell. Swords evolved across different cultures over thousands of years to take this form where it tapers both in the profile and distally, because it's related to the mechanics and techniques of sword usage. The same person, with the same strength, same technique, dishing out a blow with the same amount of force, using a distally tapered blade will end up striking with far greater (several times more) kinetic energy, and even greater momentum (even though non-distally taper blade has more mass further up the blade). Whether the operator is strong as Haftor Bjornsson, or as weak as a 3-yr-old boy, the physics remain the same. This is not even counting the edge geometry near the tip--non-distally tapered blade will be too thick near the tip and performs poorly in cutting. The weight itself is another issue altogether. I have a zweihander that weighs 7.6lbs, totally wieldable, as you imagine with the very long grip that offers leverage, but more importantly, the blade tapers from 8mm at the base down to 3mm at 2" from the tip. It's weighty, yet lively, and handles totally like a sword should. I'm commissioning a two-handers from Kvetun Armory that has the same height as myself (6'1 or 186cm), and it's going to feature an greater degree of distal taper. Not to mention a non-distally taper blade moves in a wonky way, so you can't effectively defend yourself. Defensive block, parry and deflect is arguably more important than the raw damage potential, as you have to be alive with still four limbs attached to get to the part of damage dealing. That being said, you are right about the profile taper also counts for weight distribution, too. And it's totally true that not all swords must conform to the same design principles. So for experimenting purposes, I support your quest of finding semi-functional swords without a distal taper. Note that it's quite a difficult task, as nowadays makers focus so much on functionality, even the very low-end katana or "ninja swords" all incorporate distal taper. I recommend trying the Honshu Boshin line of sword, as far as I see none of the swords in that line has any distal taper. The Boshin tactical katana and wakizashi would fit your bill, though they don't have straight blades. I'm not sure whether Marto has made any ninjato wallhanger back in the day, as their swords never feature distal taper either. But I wouldn't recommend cutting with blades made of 420 stainless for the user's own health. ZGB studios tested the Honshu katana on their zombie heads, as expected the non-distally tapered blade did far less damage compared to a properly made functional katana with distal taper. It did "kill the zombie" by causing a shallow wound into the skull as opposed to completely cutting the entire skull in half with those distally tapered katanas. Essentially, with a non-distally tapered blade you put in more effort for much less impressive results.
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Post by hoshioni on May 4, 2021 4:38:26 GMT
to strike, strongly at the right time is the basic ideal. technique can only compensate for so much strength. some forms of strength training can get you both speed and power, such as plyometrics. I was referring to the differences in weight distribution. I did not call the sword frail. Im saying that not every sword was meant to have the same design mindset. some can weigh roughly the same and find a way to put a little extra weight near the edge, especially when the emphasis is on slashing. the form of the blade reflects its function. I think you do get it about the weight distribution, mostly. It's not about the weight, it's how the weight is distributed along the blade. Imagine you go to the gym to do bench press 255 lbs, using a barbell. Whether it's 2 plates on each side, or 4 plates on 1 side only matters. Because it's related to the mechanics behind the barbell. Swords evolved across different cultures over thousands of years to take this form where it tapers both in the profile and distally, because it's related to the mechanics and techniques of sword usage. The same person, with the same strength, same technique, dishing out a blow with the same amount of force, using a distally tapered blade will end up striking with far greater (several times more) kinetic energy, and even greater momentum (even though non-distally taper blade has more mass further up the blade). Whether the operator is strong as Haftor Bjornsson, or as weak as a 3-yr-old boy, the physics remain the same. This is not even counting the edge geometry near the tip--non-distally tapered blade will be too thick near the tip and performs poorly in cutting. The weight itself is another issue altogether. I have a zweihander that weighs 7.6lbs, totally wieldable, as you imagine with the very long grip that offers leverage, but more importantly, the blade tapers from 8mm at the base down to 3mm at 2" from the tip. It's weighty, yet lively, and handles totally like a sword should. I'm commissioning a two-handers from Kvetun Armory that has the same height as myself (6'1 or 186cm), and it's going to feature an greater degree of distal taper. Not to mention a non-distally taper blade moves in a wonky way, so you can't effectively defend yourself. Defensive block, parry and deflect is arguably more important than the raw damage potential, as you have to be alive with still four limbs attached to get to the part of damage dealing. That being said, you are right about the profile taper also counts for weight distribution, too. And it's totally true that not all swords must conform to the same design principles. So for experimenting purposes, I support your quest of finding semi-functional swords without a distal taper. Note that it's quite a difficult task, as nowadays makers focus so much on functionality, even the very low-end katana or "ninja swords" all incorporate distal taper. I recommend trying the Honshu Boshin line of sword, as far as I see none of the swords in that line has any distal taper. The Boshin tactical katana and wakizashi would fit your bill, though they don't have straight blades. I'm not sure whether Marto has made any ninjato wallhanger back in the day, as their swords never feature distal taper either. But I wouldn't recommend cutting with blades made of 420 stainless for the user's own health. ZGB studios tested the Honshu katana on their zombie heads, as expected the non-distally tapered blade did far less damage compared to a properly made functional katana with distal taper. It did "kill the zombie" by causing a shallow wound into the skull as opposed to completely cutting the entire skull in half with those distally tapered katanas. Essentially, with a non-distally tapered blade you put in more effort for much less impressive results. yea got the boshin katana, and its curve is a turnoff. Ill just keep looking I know what I want. I still dont think a short sword needs 2 forms of tapering. ive seen some modern musashi ones that have EXTREME tapering. and those were outright out for me.
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Post by hoshioni on May 4, 2021 4:41:15 GMT
to strike, strongly at the right time is the basic ideal. technique can only compensate for so much strength. some forms of strength training can get you both speed and power, such as plyometrics. I was referring to the differences in weight distribution. I did not call the sword frail. Im saying that not every sword was meant to have the same design mindset. some can weigh roughly the same and find a way to put a little extra weight near the edge, especially when the emphasis is on slashing. the form of the blade reflects its function. You are correct that the form of blade reflects its function. But there has to be balance and that is what bladesmiths aim for when they make a sword. Extra weight isn't going to do much aside from wear out the user. Nobody wants "dead arm" during a duel or battle. Think about boxers who punch themselves out after exerting too much energy, can't raise their arms to guard let alone jab. Using a sword is no different. If you're gassed you're gassed and the advantage is to the opponent. Swinging a heavy sword is no different than a boxer only throwing Haymakers. Slow to recover from and guard, plus the punch exerts lots of energy. Basically you better land all your haymakers and knock out your opponent fast or you're going to be hurting. A heavy sword isn't going to perform better in cutting simply because it's got more forward pull. Remember there's more to cutting than meeting the target. Edge alignment, proper draw and form, as well as comfortability in handling matter much more than brute force. I've seen and even experienced much cleaner cuts with a properly balanced sword that I'm able to maneuver than I've seen or experienced using something heavier and more forward. Ive cut things for a decade now. however Im not gonna gripe on how long a fight should be. But I do know exactly what I want. even if im gonna have to make it myself at this rate.
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