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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 24, 2021 0:50:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 3:02:05 GMT
I'm glad it landed in the extended family. There are a few eagles with Berger marked swords. While the elder Mowbray lists this form with a backstrap as post war of 1812, we can't be sure. There are also two varieties of Berger marks. I have an eagle of this type with a Woolley, Deakin&Co. blade. The blade, on its own, could only have been marked so in the 1803-1806 period but might have been mounted most anytime. There is some variety in this general eagle form lasting into the 1840s. We see Salter types that are similar and even the Ames 1841 naval sword somewhat joining that flock of pidgeon/parrot birds. There are A. Berger marked swords and Berger Paris marked swords. My thoughts are that the A. Berger swords were cutlered in the Alsace area, where the family was selling swords in the Napoleonic War era and the Paris marked swords shortly after. My sabre is an A.Berger marked sword but not an eagle. A typical Berger eagle follows the Solingen types, while I have a Ketland type Berger marked sword in files. Both of these types also marked to Paris. Of course, not to be confused with LePage, of which a style that became what we see as a Solingen standard for decades. I'm happy you adopted this one. Cheers GC One more rouge Berger marked type
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 24, 2021 3:09:54 GMT
Thank you for the info on these. This is only the second marked one I’ve ever even seen for sale, so of course I jumped on it
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 24, 2021 3:14:14 GMT
Cleaned up nice Attachments:
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 24, 2021 3:15:13 GMT
Cheeks aren’t as puffy as other Berger eagles I’ve seen
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 3:22:16 GMT
At the time, the elder Mowbray lists "the mysterious Berger" but more has come to light over time. Pulling from an old article I read, it is there that the Alsace connection makes sense, this from a couple of decades ago but after Mowbray published his notes. Saber manufacturers: To conclude I would like to mention a few of the most famous manufacturers that were specialized in sabers. The most famous one is Nicolas Boutet of Versailles. From this shop came the Sabres d�honneur distributed by Napoleon and it was were many superior officers ordered their sabers. This shop also played a major part in the manufacturing of the Guard sabers. Other well know manufacturers in the vicinity of Paris are Duc, Manceau, Montigny,Dupont and Coullier and in the rest of France and the Empire you had Berger in Strasbourg, Spot and Goze in Metz and Coulaux in Klingenthal.www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/organization/c_lightsaber.htmlI have tried to find more on the family, with little success. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2021 3:37:51 GMT
There is little doubt there were French castings, some of which mimic the English types, while others distinctively more rooster that evolved over time. I almost did buy this one off the MDL pages for a whole lot of money. Unmarked aside from a star on the blade. Then about the French rooster. The truly Foghorn Leghorn Warner Brothers pommel from le Page (he evolves over time). Cheers GC
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 24, 2021 4:07:31 GMT
It definitely has an almost rooster-like quality about it. The gold amalgam is applied in a manner typical of what I’ve seen of French fire-gilt blades, without regard for “coloring inside the lines” of the etchings. My French-made Indian head & a French made eaglehead I own display similar qualities. 2nd pic is the Berger next to a Birmingham-made Ketland blade to illustrate the difference in technique
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 24, 2021 4:09:55 GMT
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Post by Jayhawk on Apr 25, 2021 19:32:46 GMT
Nice new sword there...and this has been a very interesting thread with good pics for reference. Thanks for sharing...both you and Glen.
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 25, 2021 19:50:44 GMT
Thank you. As you can tell by my username I’m completely obsessed with these old eagle pommel swords
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 25, 2021 20:01:43 GMT
Another thing I’ve noticed about blued sword blades from France is that the bluing is often in far better condition than American or British blades of the same period. The bottom 3 swords in the following pictures have French blades, the other 2 are British & American
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 25, 2021 20:08:53 GMT
^ I meant the 3 swords pictured at the top of picture #3
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2021 20:20:38 GMT
The Indian Princess and eagle above are most undoubtedly Solingen work. Where do you get French from for those two swords?
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 25, 2021 21:23:24 GMT
The eagle is a Simon Helvig, and the Indian Princess has no marks/stamps so I just assume it’s French based on the type of blade decor
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 25, 2021 21:31:03 GMT
All I really know about the Princess is that it’s an earlier non-Horstmann variant. The only others I’ve seen are in the Medicus collection reference book, a couple that have been on eBay, and one very unusual one just like mine but with a triangular, smallsword-type blade in this antique shop north of Boston. Honestly I couldn’t tell you what year it was made apart from the 1830’s-40’s.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2021 22:51:50 GMT
With the blade decor common to Solingen blades. I fear you are making some leaps and bounds with really nothing to point them to being French. The Medicus Collection book from Stuart Mowbray and Norm Flayderman certainly doesn't reference the swords as French. The blades themselves often having the Soligen guild marks on the spines of the blades. For instance, you will note this Helvig sword with the Solingen guild/forge mark on the spine of the blade. www.ebay.com/itm/Eagle-Head-Sword-by-Simon-Helvig-Fils-W-Blood-Mark-US-Army-Civil-War-Officers-/133024873056I try to keep an open mind when viewing all these swords and I certainly have viewed a few of them over the past two decades. Helvig is even more "mysterious" than Berger and also listed to Alsace. A territory that has seen both German Prussian and French rule. While the surname has roots in northern Germany and Denmark. The swords, however, mimicking typical wares from Solingen. www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?110360-SHF-(simon-helvig-et-filles)-swordThere is still a faction regarding SH and SHF as Samuel Hoppe but there is less evidence (from what has been presented) that the finery marked to SH and SHF was Hoppe. IMO, Helvig sourcing Solingen. It is only recently I drummed up a call so we can chart the Solingen guild/forge marks and a start at linking the mark to given makers (it has gone nowhere fast) Some were posted to a sword I presented at SFI. www.swordforum.com/vb4/showthread.php?120609-A-German-French-Whatzit-First-Empire-(-)-SabreSo, at least we have a good idea of Solingen b&g traits. One of the Berger blade traits is a "Polly want a country" e pluribus unum eagle we see on a few Berger blades, those marked to A.Berger. I have the auction images for your sword as well, back on the 12th of the month. That your sword shows no federal shield or flag may just show it was a sword meant for French, or other, continental use. I say this as another common etch on the Berger Paris marked swords. Now to point out (kinda once more for our readers) that retailers and "makers" often sourced entire swords for export. Here is a Peter Knecht marked eagle that is a spitting image of one of the common examples marked Berger Paris. A Berger sold by Knecht? Both sourcing Solingen shops? I could go on for hours but enough for now. One more time, my clipboard and scratchpad. Make whatever one may take away in spending time there but note the German production folder and Berger folder. Here once again, Eagles 3.0 uploaded 12/2020 drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Ndp0rNCqEuooH2EVkLNa6ei9HYFkIStB?usp=sharingWhatever Cheers GC
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 25, 2021 23:34:49 GMT
The lack of any sort of non-decorative etching on the blade or spine of either the Helvig or the Princess is one reason why I assumed both were French, that and Helvig being based in Alsace (although Alsace is close enough to Germany that even today there are many German cultural influences, also Helvig is a Germanic name for sure). Definitely makes sense that they’d outsource the blades from the Solingen firms
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Apr 25, 2021 23:42:03 GMT
One of the swords in your German folder has an identical pommel to the Helvig
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2021 0:42:19 GMT
Several are (indeed) marked to Helvig.
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