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Post by Brian Kunz on Mar 22, 2021 16:29:02 GMT
So why do you feel the need to carry/wear a sword in public? Cosplay? Does there need to be a reason other than the fact he wants to? If there is a reason, who has the authority to approve whether or not it's a valid one (assuming it's allowed by law)? Because it is impractical, so when people ask, curious minds want to know.
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 22, 2021 17:32:19 GMT
So why do you feel the need to carry/wear a sword in public? Cosplay? Does there need to be a reason other than the fact he wants to? If there is a reason, who has the authority to approve whether or not it's a valid one (assuming it's allowed by law)? If its legal I don't oppose it, I am just curious why someone would want to stand out as most likely the only guy in the city or state openly wearing a sword in public on any particular day. CosPlay seemed the most obvious reason and since OP is also searching out medieval clothing it seemed likely ( sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/63729/medieval-clothing ). Most people I think would prefer to avoid unwanted attention open carrying or weapons will bring and in particular the attention from Law Enforcement responding to 911 calls placed by concerned citizens who probably wouldn't know if it was legal or not. Can I assume that you have the same viewpoint supporting those wanting to open carry firearms? For the record, I am not a fan of open carry of handguns/rifles for the same reasons listed above plus the big target on an open carry persons back for someone looking to acquire a firearm for nefarious purposes. OP should learn to use Google search function...here is the first thing that popped up when I searched for my state; Surprisingly, it's entirely legal to carry a sword in public in California, as long as you are the wearer is not brandishing it or concealing it. In other words, if the sword is carried in a sheath suspended from the wearer's waist, it is legal to have in public. This is an important distinction though, because carrying the sword out in the open without a sheath in a "rude, angry or threatening manner" is considered brandishing, which is against the law. This is a misdemeanor crime, punishable by up to 30 days in jail.
legalbeagle.com/7402613-california-sword-law.html
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2021 18:02:40 GMT
It's the same here in NC. You can openly wear/carry a sword/dirk/dagger/knife - in fact, you have to. Because you can't conceal it (even with a Concealed Carry permit). Pocket-knives are an exception.
Of course there's a long list of exceptions - schools, hospitals, funerals, state buildings, etc. No blades there. One can, however, carry and conceal a blade at state owned rest areas. Seems there's been a lot of attacks there, enough for the legislature's to make an exception.
I only wear my blades to festivals. But I could legally wear them in public if I wanted to. I just don't see the point of drawing LEO attention for it.
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Post by Murffy on Mar 22, 2021 19:21:53 GMT
In Minnesota, state law says carrying fixed blade knives of any size is okay as long as you're not committing a crime with them. Cities can be more restrictive. In Minneapolis, I believe you can't carry anything with a blade longer than 3.5". Though I carry my CS Recon I sometimes and don't worry about it.
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Post by fester on Mar 22, 2021 19:49:29 GMT
Does there need to be a reason other than the fact he wants to? If there is a reason, who has the authority to approve whether or not it's a valid one (assuming it's allowed by law)? If its legal I don't oppose it, I am just curious why someone would want to stand out as most likely the only guy in the city or state openly wearing a sword in public on any particular day. CosPlay seemed the most obvious reason and since OP is also searching out medieval clothing it seemed likely ( sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/63729/medieval-clothing ). Most people I think would prefer to avoid unwanted attention open carrying or weapons will bring and in particular the attention from Law Enforcement responding to 911 calls placed by concerned citizens who probably wouldn't know if it was legal or not. Can I assume that you have the same viewpoint supporting those wanting to open carry firearms? For the record, I am not a fan of open carry of handguns/rifles for the same reasons listed above plus the big target on an open carry persons back for someone looking to acquire a firearm for nefarious purposes. OP should learn to use Google search function...here is the first thing that popped up when I searched for my state; Surprisingly, it's entirely legal to carry a sword in public in California, as long as you are the wearer is not brandishing it or concealing it. In other words, if the sword is carried in a sheath suspended from the wearer's waist, it is legal to have in public. This is an important distinction though, because carrying the sword out in the open without a sheath in a "rude, angry or threatening manner" is considered brandishing, which is against the law. This is a misdemeanor crime, punishable by up to 30 days in jail.
legalbeagle.com/7402613-california-sword-law.html
Open carry is not an issue if the population gets used to it which is the norm in many states now. I am talking about firearms though swords would fall into the same category if they were worn frequently. In addition, the worry about someone trying to take the weapons from you is over stated if you are open carrying. It is very rare. And having worked with offenders in prisons, etc. for 28 years almost everyone I have talked to state if they see someone is armed they would move on to a softer target. None ever stated they wanted to deal with an armed individual. Having said that I only open carry firearms when I am in the woods/hiking for easier access. I do not open carry around town though I am not opposed to those that do. I carry concealed. I have also opened carried as I mentioned before a sword in the woods (with a firearm) just to see how it would feel if I was on foot traveling in days of yore. The sword really does not add any weight and is quite comfortable to wear. And this is after hours of hiking up and down hills etc. And the people I encountered thought it was cool and did not feel threatened. But like I said people around my area are used to people carrying weapons. The sword is not a practical weapon for defense in this day and age. Though in the hands of a actually skilled swordman could still be quite deadly. But it is an obsolete weapon compared to modern firearms.
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Post by Lord Newport on Mar 22, 2021 20:01:54 GMT
In addition, the worry about someone trying to take the weapons from you is over stated if you are open carrying. It is very rare. And having worked with offenders in prisons, etc. for 28 years almost everyone I have talked to state if they see someone is armed they would move on to a softer target. None ever stated they wanted to deal with an armed individual. I think that looking to rob someone for money is one thing but someone intent on getting access to a weapon using an open carry person as a source, I think that's another thing. "In nearby Santa Ana, Castaneda is suspected of attacking and fatally wounding a man in a Subway restaurant, police said, before killing the 7-Eleven security guard, using a knife to cut his belt and leaving the store armed with the man’s gun." www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-crime-california/police-say-california-man-killed-four-in-string-of-savage-stabbings-idUSKCN1UY1R5
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Post by fester on Mar 22, 2021 20:38:52 GMT
In addition, the worry about someone trying to take the weapons from you is over stated if you are open carrying. It is very rare. And having worked with offenders in prisons, etc. for 28 years almost everyone I have talked to state if they see someone is armed they would move on to a softer target. None ever stated they wanted to deal with an armed individual. I think that looking to rob someone for money is one thing but someone intent on getting access to a weapon using an open carry person as a source, I think that's another thing. "In nearby Santa Ana, Castaneda is suspected of attacking and fatally wounding a man in a Subway restaurant, police said, before killing the 7-Eleven security guard, using a knife to cut his belt and leaving the store armed with the man’s gun." www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-crime-california/police-say-california-man-killed-four-in-string-of-savage-stabbings-idUSKCN1UY1R5Did not say it never happened said it was rare. And situational awareness is key in any circumstances. Most criminals will go the other way but there is always a possible exception. Nothing is certain. There is an inmate in our system right now who killed a lady who was concealed carrying. He killed her before she had a chance to get her weapon out. So just carrying a weapon in and of itself is no guarantee. Knowing how to use it and being aware of your environment go hand in hand.
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Post by theophilus736 on Mar 22, 2021 21:47:23 GMT
Anyone who decides to exercise prudential reasoning and comes to a different conclusion?
If something isn't reasonable, it's up for judgement.
I think it's great, for what that's worth.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2021 22:00:05 GMT
It's a valid point to consider. Carrying a weapon is protection, but it's also a risk. It affords an opportunity for others to take the weapon. I've thought about that a few times.
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Post by unistat76 on Mar 23, 2021 17:17:53 GMT
To me, the key to open carry (of firearms) responsibly is a proper retention holster. For example, my work holster is a level 3 holster requiring a few different releases before I (or anyone else) can draw it. The holster is designed so that it is very ergonomic and quick to draw while wearing it, but very awkward if someone were to try and take it from me. In addition, most LEO and justice system type folks train in retention tactics in case someone goes for your gun, specifically because OC can invite that sort of action.
I have a few holsters for open carry, mostly for work or woods bumming, but they all have retention beyond a tight fit.
More germain to the OP's topic, I'm not sure sword scabards need to have the same retention characteristics as pistol holsters. I can't imagine someone pulling my own sword without me being able to take some kind of retention action, but I could be wrong.
Historically, was this something that was a concern? I really don't know.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 23, 2021 18:34:23 GMT
Couple of things:
1. I'm not worried if somebody takes my sword from me. There is a 99.9999% chance they have no clue how to fight with a sword and will simply swing it like a baseball bat- in which case I can easily take it back from them.
2. A sword is not a gun. A gun requires very little skill- therefore taking a gun away from me is much more critical and dangerous. In this case, I always carried concealed where it is allowed because if nobody knows I have it, they are less tempted to take it, and I retain the option of deciding whether or not to involve myself in a situation.
3. My local laws allowed concealed and open carry, with the caveat that open carry cannot be disguised. That is to say, you can't carry a weapon that is disguised to look like something else i.e. a sword cane or similar. Also, concealed means just that, tuck it away all the way, or wear it open all the way. A holstered gun in a military style flap holster is technically in the gray area, but I was informed by both LEO's and lawyers that if a cop does take action for you carrying a "concealed" gun in a flap holster, then it will get thrown out in court because it contradicts itself: in other words, the cop approached you in the first place because he by defacto recognized the gun in the flap holster as being a gun and therefore it's not considered concealed. To date there have been zero cases of a person being charge with concealed carry in a flap holster. The same holds true for a sword in a sheath, the blade doesn't have to be visible for it to be recognized for what it is.
4. Local laws prohibit police from using "ethnic garb" as a basis for "probable cause". In other words: they aren't the fashion police. If I choose to wear medieval Italian clothing, or even Roman clothing, as my daily wear, it's none of anybody's business. It's my actions, not my clothing, that will create a problem with the police. I don't have to justify my ethnic heritage to the courts.
5. If you are not threatening, drunk, or otherwise acting out, then the police really have no reason to even speak to you other than in general conversation, assuming you are otherwise compliant with weapons laws. It's still a free country.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Mar 23, 2021 23:39:08 GMT
If you are not threatening, drunk, or otherwise acting out, then the police really have no reason to even speak to you other than in general conversation, assuming you are otherwise compliant with weapons laws. It's still a free country. Any patrol officer who encounters a dude with a sword on the street has a very sensible interest in talking to them to try to gauge whether this is a crazy person or not. Not a few of those conversations have immediately escalated to violence because it WAS a crazy person after all, which only serves to validate the concern. If someone calls 911, which they will, the police will have to respond and they do have an interest in interviewing all parties involved. What they don't have is cause to detain you, necessarily, but if they decide they do due to laws you don't know about or exaggerated reports of brandishing by the caller, you had better comply with any commands given or force will be used to restrain you. "Am I free to go?" If not no, then yes. If no, then your freedom at that point is merely to shut up and start thinking about calling a lawyer.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Mar 23, 2021 23:51:03 GMT
Reports of brandishing does not equal actually doing it. When the cops show up and you're doing nothing at all, then they don't have probable cause to do anything other than check your ID. If they do charge you with something, what would it be? The cop would have to go in front of a judge, in a courtroom, and tell everybody there that he was acting as the fashion police and that the accused was merely walking down the street or sitting on a bench with legal sword not in hand, none of which is a crime. However, making a false 911 call about somebody brandishing a weapon when they aren't is called "swatting" and it is a crime.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2021 0:26:23 GMT
Regardless of whether it'd be thrown out of court, it's a burden on a person to be potentially arrested, having to go through court, etc. Just don't do it. Even when justified. It's not worth the hassle.
Something I worry about is wearing swords at festivals where alcohol is served. Because I drink. I don't mess with people, I don't brandish my weapons, but one never knows how much latitude any particular LEO will have if I'm caught with a beer in hand, or a dram of scotch. Wearing swords.
Normal people will see it for what it is. Harmless. But it could be used against me. All I need is someone who's had a really bad day to take it out on me. I'll be exonerated I'm sure, but it'd still make my life miserable in the short term.
I worry about this sometimes. Puts a damper on the festivals.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2021 0:46:10 GMT
Here's part of the outfit I'm working on for the next festival. Obviously the Looney Tunes t-shirt, socks, and slippers are not part of the final product.
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Post by unistat76 on Mar 24, 2021 0:54:35 GMT
Reports of brandishing does not equal actually doing it. When the cops show up and you're doing nothing at all, then they don't have probable cause to do anything other than check your ID. If they do charge you with something, what would it be? The cop would have to go in front of a judge, in a courtroom, and tell everybody there that he was acting as the fashion police and that the accused was merely walking down the street or sitting on a bench with legal sword not in hand, none of which is a crime. However, making a false 911 call about somebody brandishing a weapon when they aren't is called "swatting" and it is a crime. Forgive me if I'm rehashing facts you already know. If the police receive a call for service about a man brandishing a sword, and then arrive on scene to a man carrying (but not brandishing) a sword, they have enough Reasonable Suspicion to stop the subject (aka "arrest" or "seize") and investigate, which entails more than handing over your ID. That is no different than any other CFS, whether it's a robbery with a description of a suspect's clothing or a drunk driver with a description of the car. During the investigation, the subject is not free to go. The LEO can only detain you for a reasonable amount of time to conduct the investigation. If Probable Cause does not develop in that time, the investigation is over and the subject is free to go. Probable Cause is a higher standard and necessary for a warrant or arrest. In general, the more reasonable the subject is, the quicker the investigation is over. Now, is carrying a sword alone (where it is legal to do so) enough to create Reasonable Suspicion for an investigation? It is not. For example, a few years ago in Michigan, where open carry is legal, an 18 year old young man was observed by an officer walking down the street carrying a rifle. The officer stopped and detained the young man for an investigation. The stop was ruled to be improper because it was legal for the young man to open carry his rifle. No call for service referenced a crime being committed and neither did the officer observe such. Was it unwise for the young man to OC a rifle? Maybe, but he had logical reasons.
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Post by unistat76 on Mar 24, 2021 1:06:15 GMT
Regardless of whether it'd be thrown out of court, it's a burden on a person to be potentially arrested, having to go through court, etc. Just don't do it. Even when justified. It's not worth the hassle. This is true as far as it goes. Some people might be participating in a form of activism and welcome any contact or notoriety. Often these folks are trolling, but sometimes it's more benign activism. A Michigan firearms organization use to have "Open Carry Picnics" to make municipalities aware that OC could not be preempted by local law. They were very peaceful and respectful and accomplished their exact goal. Most cities removed their unlawful ordinances and awareness of the legality of OC was greatly increased. FWIW, I'm not a big fan of OC, but I feel it is important that it be legal, for a variety of reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2021 1:09:05 GMT
Young man may have been exonerated, but it still sounds like he was arrested, and went to court (rightfully to have it thrown out). Still all in all a bad day, with other bad days following before it was cleared up.
It's not worth it though. I'd prefer to not even have a chance of it going there. Not even when I'm justified within my rights and aware of it.
I'm not out to prove points. I just don't want to invite hassle.
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Post by unistat76 on Mar 24, 2021 1:09:53 GMT
Young man may have been exonerated, but it still sounds like he was arrested, and went to court (rightfully to have it thrown out). Still all in all a bad day, with other bad days following before it was cleared up. It's not worth it though. I'd prefer to not even have a chance of it going there. Not even when I'm justified within my rights, and aware of it. He was, but that was his goal all along. As I said, some are activists. And I agree. For myself, it's not worth the trouble.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2021 1:11:16 GMT
We're in agreement. I like going to festivals wearing swords, without inviting hassles.
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