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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Mar 15, 2021 6:19:51 GMT
This was my first thought too but MRL says the blade is made by Windlass. Maybe Hanwei uses Windlass blades too, perhaps just for sabers?? I have a Hanwei naval boarding cutlass which is obviously made in India!
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Post by viece on Mar 17, 2021 0:01:39 GMT
If you're really into these designs why not spend $300-400 and get an original antique? At that price point it won't be nice enough for you to be precious about damage. Go ahead and cut.
I realize I tend to say the same thing in multiple threads. But even a crappy original Ames, etc is just SO GOOD. I have a sub $400, beat to hell, patinaed, service-sharpened Ames 1863 light cav sabre and it is so beautifully made, makes me smile every time I swing it around. No replica touches it.
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Post by tsmspace on Mar 17, 2021 5:19:48 GMT
Of course, I could be wrong. You're not wrong, MRL are selling hanwei swords. A quick look saw a few hanwei tinker swords, and the Rhinelander. at any rate, if looks very similar to a windlass sword as far as the specific look of the steel,,, just the polish and the bouncyness. I mean the color too, but colors are like,,, you can really think they all look different or the same.
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Post by tsmspace on Mar 17, 2021 5:22:07 GMT
If you're really into these designs why not spend $300-400 and get an original antique? At that price point it won't be nice enough for you to be precious about damage. Go ahead and cut. I realize I tend to say the same thing in multiple threads. But even a crappy original Ames, etc is just SO GOOD. I have a sub $400, beat to hell, patinaed, service-sharpened Ames 1863 light cav sabre and it is so beautifully made, makes me smile every time I swing it around. No replica touches it. hmm,,, well, maybe one day. If an opportunity times itself, but I'm really not confident in my certainty of the genuine-ness" of swords I see, and the worst thing that could happen is I buy a chemical patina'd en9 sword or something, deepeeka or something, and if I were to bet, I would just bet on that first. I can't go LOOK at any antiques, I live in honolulu. And if someone HAS an antique out here, they payed a lot for it, and no one sells anything out here without a 30% markup.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2021 6:20:32 GMT
Knowledge and ebay. Some will never make the leap to finding inexpensive using antiques. Nor will they be interested in much of the history. All they want is a sword to cut bottles That's fine.
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Post by tsmspace on Mar 17, 2021 18:20:10 GMT
Knowledge and ebay. Some will never make the leap to finding inexpensive using antiques. Nor will they be interested in much of the history. All they want is a sword to cut bottles That's fine. its kind of risky and expensive.
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Post by tsmspace on Mar 17, 2021 23:01:21 GMT
I had done a search for the Windlass M1860 LC and the places I checked were all out of stock so you surprised me. The link you provided also lists them as OOS. I don’t have that one but the Officer’s Model, not the same so I can’t compare. However I see no repro cavalry sabre that I’d rather have. Unfortunately it didn’t come that way. ACC had a sale and the $90 price tag caused me to pull the trigger. It was terrible but over time working a little here and a little there it’s proving itself a good sabre. I’ve reshaped the grip to fit my hand, sharpened the true and false edges, and added some distal taper, and brought the PoB back ½”. The tip thickness in now 2.8mm from a 3.5, I plan to take it down to 2.6 someday. I’m not a fan of cavalry sabres but this one handles much better now and I find myself liking it. It holds an edge well, not to mention it’s a strong cutter. A fencing sabre it isn’t. The M1902 is much better at fencing while Windlass’ M1860 OM is more robust and a better cutter at the cost of less agility, slower, and more fatiguing. If you don’t like MRL’s sharpening you can always take a file to it and consider what they removed a step towards easing your work. I’d like to know how it works out for you. I thought you might be interested to know that MRL (atlanta cutlery) has actually already sent me a shipping notification. SO, I don't know what that means for any other orders that might be placed, , but it only took them about a week to ship it, even though it shows out of stock. I am a bit concerned about the adventurers blade story of the loos handle, I have to wonder if it's not because of the peen , but instead it's because the wood used in the handle is too soft. I have the experience with some other swords that I am confident they are using a very soft cheap wood in the handle, (actually with some shinwas the wood was so soft I could have eaten it raw.) My universal swords also feels like soft wood,, and therefore my expectation is that ALL india produced sabers are using this softer handle wood. (except for those swords that the handle wood is exterior). The 1840 nco is all brass, which means the wood isn't part of the equation, anyway, usps shouldn't take much more than a week, so I might have the saber by next weekend, and in that case I might be able to cut with it next weekend, as I ordered sharpening service. (which should work for bottles, even though I prefer if the entire bevel is taken down instead of some fat secondary)
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Post by pgandy on Mar 17, 2021 23:38:15 GMT
I’m glad they restocked so soon. I just checked and they are now marked as being in stock. The handle loosening could be caused by improperly cured wood or simply the wood adjusting to the environment. A reason that I prefer a threaded pommel is that that is easily enough corrected. But lately the swords that I’ve received listed with threaded pommels arrived epoxied preventing me from entering and had one of those loosen, but fixed. Generally I’ve had not problems with that issue concerning Windlass. However after several years my German Bastard Sword needed attention. My Universal P1796 (peened) loosened up within the year. I repaired and about 6 mo later it was lose again and I repaired again. That was perhaps a couple of years ago and no problem since. I would like to know your opinion of the M1860 Sabre after you’ve gotten acquainted with it.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 5, 2021 0:20:37 GMT
update on the windlass 1960 union light cavalry saber.
well,, here's some videos showing the edge.
so far,,, well,,, the sword is still quite heavy for my weak little arms, so I can't swing it particularly fast like I can with, for example, the 1840 nco sword,,, which I can really move when compared. Well,, my arms are weak and little, so that doesn't mean the sword is particularly heavy, but it feels heavy to me, and I don't really have the control I think I should have to cut with it.
So,, it's cutting, but I also don't think I know how to cut with a saber. It's not about where to cut on the blade,, or edge alignment (although edge alignment is probably a bigger problem the heavier the sword feels, as you will not have the same control),, I think it's in general my swing and what I'm doing at the point of impact. I practiced a lot with straight swords after plenty of two-handed success with katanas,, I did use katanas one handed,, but this saber is just different,,, and so is the other saber I have, which is all bent up. So,, I suppose if I knew how to swing it, , the other one might not have bent so much, . I noticed with my windlass 1860 naval cutlass I had to stand more upright, and keep my body more static, mostly moving at the shoulder. I suppose I need to do similarly with the sabers. With straight swords, the technique is much more about rotating the body and swinging from the hips.
One other thing I think I notice,, is that the edge feels a lot more at risk of damage going in and out of this scabbard, than my universal swords 1845 wilkinson lcs did.
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Post by pgandy on Apr 5, 2021 15:38:02 GMT
Now you know why I’m not a cavalry sabre fan. My M1860 OM is a robust sword and cuts very well but I find it slower and harder to control, a characteristic of all three of my cavalry sabres, than my dismounted sabres. I believe if I were mounted I’d enjoy my M1860 more. I’ve modified it over the years giving it a better grip, sharpened both edges, reduced the tip thickness and brought the PoB back a ½” making it handle half way decently. In the future a hope to reduce the thickness more. And ya, that steel scabbard will dull the edge. In the beginning I protected the edge with tape before sheathing. With my cutlass I managed to obtain a leather sheath. With the others I gave up on the tape It worked but was a pain removing and replacing for each use and finally I found rust underneath. I had been warned about that. I now just clean and place in the rack naked. The tip on your M1860 is a bit odd. Did it come that way? I tried your file sharpening leaving teeth, but with a course belt on my sander. I made a post and attached to you M1840 NCO thread. I believe the P1796 cut better and will test further on other blades as the need comes for resharpening.
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Post by pellius on Apr 5, 2021 17:50:42 GMT
Nice videos. Thanks for your impressions, results, and analysis.
That is a very nice sharpening job.
I did a freeze-frame showing your foible's thickness, and I would suggest that it is simply too thick for a fast snappy swing or effective cut. Though I do not have a genuine m1860 LCS, I have a few antique m1840's, and a couple of first-run Fr. m1822's upon which they were based. The thickest foible among them is 2.6mm, and they average about 2.4mm. Also, that thickness begins at the fuller termination and extends the full length of the foible.
I tried to go frame-by-frame on the cutting video with limited success. I was not able to explicitly confirm, but it looked like you struck the bottle optimally with the distal foible.
Your body was not visible in most of the delivery of the cut, but it looked like your hip rotation followed your shoulder in your follow through. You may find that you generate much more energy and speed by beginning your swing from the hips.
Perhaps try moving your saber to its cut-initiation position, then hold it stationary as you begin to rotate your hips through the cut, pushing against your right (sword) foot. As your hips rotate, your upper body and arm will come under tension. When your hips pass the vertical plane of the cut, begin uncoiling your body, beginning at the hips and continuing to your shoulder and down your sword arm. You should be able to pull your shoulders and upper body back in line with your hips using all the strength of your upper body. As the motion reaches your elbow, rotate the saber into the cutting plane, and pull it through the target. You can snap your wrist forward at the cut if you wish. The follow through will leave your chest under compression and inertia into your left (off) foot, saber hand at your left with the point generally forward and away from your (rotated) body.
The momentum of the cut can be stopped as your sword arm meets your compressed midsection, transferring the energy into the ground through your off foot.
That compression energy can then be re-directed into another cut, a thrust, parry, guard, or foot movement.
I have no idea whether any of that is part of any HEMA saber style, but I kinda doubt it. It's just the way I was instructed in delivering a fast and powerful cut with an adaptable delivery.
After a while, I found that an effective cut can be delivered with a much less exuberant delivery. The exaggerated movement just helped me get a feel for the technique. Ultimately, the cut can be delivered with very little actual hip and shoulder movement needed to create tension, energy, and compression.
Incidentally, the way I learned it, the saber is rotated 180* about its long axis after the cut, and the blade continues until pointed away from the target (or farther). If another strike is to follow, counter-rotation of the hips can begin before the first cut is complete. While there are tactical benefits to doing this, there are also tactical and physical risks, especially to your off leg and arm. Ultimately, my personal opinion is that the full follow-through is not necessary for backyard cutting, and is not safe without solid personal instruction and coaching.
If you want to give this a go, keep in mind that the technique tends to bring your off hand toward your sword hand. Don't let it float out there lest you cut yourself. I would suggest either placing your off hand firmly on your off hip or keeping a close guard, hand against the center of your chest.
fwiw
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Post by pgandy on Apr 5, 2021 18:27:09 GMT
The foible on my M1860 is 2.8 mm, the same thickness as Dave Kelly listed on his original M1840 sabre. It started at 3.5 mm and has made a noticeable difference. My target is around 2.5 mm. It’s time consuming work and I do it in stages. It handles reasonably well now and I suspect it maybe a pleasure at 2.5 mm although I’m not a cavalry fan. It certainly is a strong cutter and robust sabre. I just need a horse to go with it.
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Post by pgandy on Apr 5, 2021 22:09:10 GMT
Here’s a video that may help. It helped me to improve #3&4 cuts, which in my case were weak. So much so that I rarely used them. After dry handling my M1902, practicing I placed a plastic bottle on the stand and halved it easily with a #3. I watched the above video and you cutting with the M1840 NCO sword and you don’t put much english into it, most effort comes from your right shoulder. Although the video is not about speeding the sword it will help and increase your power.
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Post by pgandy on Apr 6, 2021 22:28:33 GMT
See if this won't help to pick up your speed. Your M1860 will never as fast as your M1840 NCO sword. More powerful but not as fast.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Apr 7, 2021 2:37:12 GMT
Knowledge and ebay. Some will never make the leap to finding inexpensive using antiques. Nor will they be interested in much of the history. All they want is a sword to cut bottles That's fine. its kind of risky and expensive. Depends on what you like. I tried to take that step, got a Brazilian army saber. Decided sabers weren't really my thing and sold it. Medieval swords? Antiques aren't an option. Filipino? I love them but antiques are sparse and overpriced (as user blades) due to the huge explosion in FMA popularity. New production Filipino blades don't suck as much compared to antiques as the saber replicas do. But it sounds like we both feel similarly about the Union 1860. Just kind of meh. But I would definitely try to get an antique again instead of a Windlass saber.
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Post by tsmspace on Apr 7, 2021 3:31:54 GMT
See if this won't help to pick up your speed. Your M1860 will never as fast as your M1840 NCO sword. More powerful but not as fast. here's my youtube comment "" So far I haven't tried doing this kind of motion. I think I must have seen it recommended a while ago, but definitely since I've gotten my saber I haven't practiced with it in mind, it's way more of a pendulum from the shoulder that I've been trying. I will go try it out for sure. "" anyway thank you. I think this will be good to focus on and I was not doing so as of yet. I have this picture in my mind where I should be able to get a proper cut from an upright posture that doesn't move my hips, , not that there is not more power when using more hips and legs, but I seem to think that the basic strikes in the manuals do not actually show the model moving below the waist,, they do the entire strike series with mostly just their arm. So, I think the wrist is probably the first place i can start to figure it out and make a real difference,,. Like I said, I must have seen this before somewhere, but haven't considered it since trying to use my saber, so haven't been thinking about it or practicing the motions.
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Post by pgandy on Apr 7, 2021 11:55:05 GMT
here's my youtube comment "" So far I haven't tried doing this kind of motion. I think I must have seen it recommended a while ago, but definitely since I've gotten my saber I haven't practiced with it in mind, it's way more of a pendulum from the shoulder that I've been trying. I will go try it out for sure. "" anyway thank you. I think this will be good to focus on and I was not doing so as of yet. I have this picture in my mind where I should be able to get a proper cut from an upright posture that doesn't move my hips, , not that there is not more power when using more hips and legs, but I seem to think that the basic strikes in the manuals do not actually show the model moving below the waist,, they do the entire strike series with mostly just their arm. So, I think the wrist is probably the first place i can start to figure it out and make a real difference,,. Like I said, I must have seen this before somewhere, but haven't considered it since trying to use my saber, so haven't been thinking about it or practicing the motions. The wrist, elbow, or shoulder can be used for the cut, the shoulder the most powerful. Bring the little finger into play with all. To stay in frame and to avoid damaging furniture I restricted the movement. My point was to show how to use the fingers. Also don’t forget to slice aka sabre cut so as not to bat your target. Good luck.
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