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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Feb 22, 2021 22:10:39 GMT
Anybody else collect these? I mainly collect eagle pommel swords and am always looking for other collectors. Usually I look out for swords made by FW Widmann, and own 3 definite Widmanns and 2 possible Widmanns
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2021 23:29:05 GMT
Some of mine. I have added two more Osborn types since. Two spadroons and two sabres of those now. I have just one type VI Widmann, shown vertical in that rack photo. I concentrate mostly on earlier federal period eagles but an exception would be an Ames. I archive a lot of sales imagery and my latest eagle clipboard is labeled eagles 3.0 uploaded to G-drive. It is just a scratch pad and there will be misplaced stuff, some of it purposefully. Eagles have been my main sword interest for a long time but I accumulated other sword types. drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B9AOFMA8y3ODRHZJOXJ4dG5tYWs?usp=sharingFor the most part, swords up through 1820 have the most draw for me. The Widmann story is a great one and well noted in Mowbray's old testament on eagle pommel swords. I am looking for a particular Bolton type sabre to round out my 'sets' of Bolton, Ketland and Osborn. A spadroon and sabre of each. I can't seem to get away from a good Osborn deal. I'd love to see your eagles! Aside from my prattling on, there doesn't seem to be much love for them here. Cheers Glen Cleeton
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Feb 23, 2021 0:44:01 GMT
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Feb 23, 2021 0:48:41 GMT
The sabre without an eagle pommel is a variant of the 1832 Marine Sergeant’s Sword that I believe is unique. But then again they say that no two Widmanns are exactly alike
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Feb 23, 2021 1:07:10 GMT
In the rack photo, those two swords displayed horizontally at bottom right might be very early Widmanns from the 1820’s. The one I posted of a similar type has his characteristic “W” mark that looks like intersecting uppercase “V”’s etched way up on the ricasso underneath the langet in a way that makes it almost impossible to see from most angles.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2021 1:56:56 GMT
Your dove head sabre is quite possibly unique but something I have noted between watching sales, noting both Mowbray's and Don Furr's book/swords is that Widmann was capable and obviously taking apart whole German imports (supplementing), adding his ferrule(s) and selling as his. It is apparent with the large crested backstrap eagles Mowbray notes (by virtue of the ferrules only, Furr had one) and the general officer swords vying with the Ames market. My crested backstrap sabre has another design in the ferrule. I am sure you may know the Smullen article. bcadapa.org/smullen1-sm.pdfThe last you show is the wafer cookie type grip, an unfinished wear side guard and upside down ferrule, somewhat posing as a Widmann. We see miles of that ferrule pattern but late in the day (imo) during the 1850s. The two preceding decades see the oak leaf and acorn routine the other way around. For the life of me, I now puzzle how Ames ended up using that ubiquitous ferrule on some of their 1850/1860 stuff. There was a Widmann ferrule crested backstrap and another ferrule type Widmann of Don Furr's that sold these past few years and are otherwise twins (and implied by Mowbray). My little type VI yet another ferrule. Some of these may be in the transition to Horstmann after Widmann died. We see Horstmann later assembling many type VI with plain ferrules. I think there is still a lot to learn about Widmann's shop and offerings over those decades. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2021 2:07:48 GMT
In the rack photo, those two swords displayed horizontally at bottom right might be very early Widmanns from the 1820’s. The one I posted of a similar type has his characteristic “W” mark that looks like intersecting uppercase “V”’s etched way up on the ricasso underneath the langet in a way that makes it almost impossible to see from most angles. My crested backstrap is quite different and at the very bottom, the baby broadsword at the bottom of the rack is more along the lines of A.W.Spies and British invasion hilts of the '40s and '50s While I will always be learning, that g-drive file represents my train of thought and more than a dozen years of seriously archiving much of the traffic. There are certain swords I have tracked through three owners (and counting). Take some time and browse through the folders. Cheers GC
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2021 2:15:23 GMT
As to the etched W on the blade, I have my doubts aside that the blades may have come from Weyersburg. I know the common train of thought implies Widmann, while the ferrule does not. If you look through the crested backstrap folder, you will see a lot of your ferrule. Then, look at the Widmann and Horstmann folders.
Again, I'd not deny anyone the possibility but why not use the obvious Widmann trademarks when he could have.
Just some of my thoughts.
Cheers GC
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Feb 23, 2021 2:32:21 GMT
There’s the theory that he hadn’t yet started using his grape vine ferrule when he was making these backstrap sabres. Also, my Type VI has an identical “W” at the ricasso. My theory is that if his usual stamped mark wouldn’t “mesh” with the rest of the sword he’d etch a W inside of an arch surrounded by leaves at the ricasso. As for that paneled grip sword, it’s nearly identical to the example of a Horstmann cobbled together from Widmann parts after his death in 1848, and is most likely from sometime in the 1850’s. I used to see people trying to sell these as “War of 1812 swords” online all the time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2021 3:34:38 GMT
Part 2 of the Smullen notes www.bcadapa.org/smullen2-sm.pdfWe know both Widmann and Horstmann sourced Weyersburg blades, so if someone can provide both the b&g W along with a crowned king, I see more substance than Widmann clearly stamping his hilts at times. Don't be surprised when I write that your crested backstrap is not as old as might be suggested The carvings more in line with the 1840s than the 1820s (imho). I write that because of the ferrule presented and the grip. Again, pointing to my archives, you will find your ferrule in my more generic crested backstrap folder and you will find scabbard bands that match the ferrules with swords they belong to. More evidence I see as not a Widmann production unless he was importing entire swords (which becomes apparent to me). Widmann's very early eagles did not use the the leaf and grape ferrule but as shown a couple of posts ago, I did show a crested backstrap with the fantail guard which has been associated with Widmann, both the ferrule and the fact that the guard is stamped. Another set that is in the folders linked in my first reply, archived July 5th, 2013. A generic German dovehead but without a grape leaf ferrule (but the same ferrule as my type VI) while clearly stamped. Anyway, I am sure neither of the two at the bottom of that rack photo are Widmann and that my type VI may have been assembled in the shop transition, or Widmann was simply done with the grape leaves. I would reiterate that the sword with the upside down ferrule is not a Horstmann production and not using Widmann parts (imo). Peterson misidentifies those knuckle guards in his 1954 old testament. Cheers GC
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Feb 23, 2021 3:59:43 GMT
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Feb 23, 2021 4:01:38 GMT
Do you know much about these? There isn’t a whole lot of info out there it seems
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2021 4:28:08 GMT
The early Indian Princess swords are of the 1830s and 1840s, then produced on the cheap after the 1870s (they are shown in the Ames reprint catalog). The late swords are fewer it seems as survivors but the blades and fittings in general cheaply produced. Rankin and Tuite discuss them in the naval context before the regulation 1841 naval eagle pommel. I see them command top dollar in top condition. They turn up with the same Solingen traits as the little eagles. Likewise the cheap eagle pommel military association types surface as the 1821 pattern because of the shell counterguard.
They are pretties but decades after my primary interests.
Did you surf in from one of the facebook groups?
Cheers GC
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Feb 23, 2021 4:47:52 GMT
No actually I haven’t been on Facebook in years. In fact I only started collecting swords about a year or so ago. A friend of mine had a shin gunto, and seeing/handling it got me really interested in antique/historical swords.
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Feb 23, 2021 4:57:35 GMT
I know that Horstmann made some Indian Princess swords, but all the examples I’ve seen have a cylindrical bone grip. I think the blade is French based on the smaller, simpler etchings with no regard for “coloring inside the lines” with the gold amalgam.
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Post by Jayhawk on Feb 23, 2021 4:58:42 GMT
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Feb 23, 2021 5:26:32 GMT
Does that first one have a triangular blade? I’ve only seen a handful of triangle-blade eagleheads. Almost like an 18th century smallsword
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Feb 23, 2021 6:34:42 GMT
Also I collect these old bone gripped knight heads. The one with the bow-tie crossguard and brimmed helmet is a Baker & McKenney from probably late 1850’s early 1860’s. The one on the bottom I’m not sure because there aren’t any markings anywhere. I see the same model for sale a lot on the internet, usually pretty inexpensive. I did the hot needle test on the grip when I got it to see if it was a later Bakelite grip, and it’s definitely not plastic. Based on that I don’t think it’s a masonic or fraternal sword.
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Post by eaglepommeladdict on Feb 23, 2021 6:40:18 GMT
I’m not a huge fan of the aesthetic of most Civil War era swords, but I like these. Swords like these are great for somebody who wants a real antique sword but might not necessarily have a lot of disposable income also.
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Post by Jayhawk on Feb 23, 2021 12:56:38 GMT
Does that first one have a triangular blade? I’ve only seen a handful of triangle-blade eagleheads. Almost like an 18th century smallsword It does! It's absolutely a classic small sword blade made by P. Knecht most likely in the 1820s-1830s. Here is a section of the blued blade: We have similar collecting tastes...I'm not a fan of most Civil War swords, either, but I also collect those bone handled helmet swords. Here are my bone handled straight swords: From top, early Ames model with short broad etched blade, pre-civil war (but later than the Ames) Horstmann with etched M1840 NCO styled short blade, and a fraternal (likely International Order of Odd Fellows) even later made post-civil war sword with Kirshbaum blade.
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