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Post by rausa94 on Jan 29, 2021 2:24:21 GMT
Hello everyone! New member, first post!
I know this topic has been touched on in the past, however I have seen some different information and haven't really been able to find a consensus. I'm planning on ordering my first "real sword" from Albion, but have been having a really hard time deciding grip colors. I'm hoping the sword will be representative of a minor noble in the 11th-12th centuries and I'd like to be as accurate as possible with my choices.
I've heard that colored grips were quite popular among those who could afford them. I've also heard that brown as a dye color was undesirable and to be avoided. Does anyone have any further information on these two points? I personally think brown looks very good as a leather dye, and I feel like I've seen countless examples of brown leather in representations of medieval grips and scabbards, but was curious about the idea that it was a color to be eschewed. Any thoughts?
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Post by bruntson on Jan 29, 2021 2:48:19 GMT
Brown dye was made from walnut shells back in the day. It was one of most common and inexpesive dyes to be made for textiles and thus it was choice for the poor common people. Nobility wanted to stand out from commoners and the quality and color of their clothes and personal items reflected their more expensive tastes. Today, I agree with you that brown leather looks great and doesn't carry the stigma of being low class. Good Luck in your choice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 2:59:05 GMT
I've read that red was an expensive color. At that time, red was made from insects that had to be imported, which was extremely expensive. Only the rich could afford it. Which is why it was so desirable. It was a status symbol.
Hence the redcoats of England. And many other examples.
I was researching tartans from the Scottish Highlands, trying to determine the colors of my ancestors. No one had "approved" colors in their day. The rich wore red to show their status, the not so rich used indigo, and the poor used whatever color they could get.
All these "approved" colors one sees online today regarding approved tartans, etc is BS. The real history is that the wealthy wore red, the rest wore whatever they could afford.
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Jan 29, 2021 3:26:43 GMT
Red dye for fabric was made from madder and wasn't expensive as it grows easily in Europe. I'm not sure if it was used to dye leather.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 3:30:59 GMT
Scarlet dye - it was an insect. It was the norm in its time, very expensive. Here's the link. COCHINEAL
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Post by soulfromheart on Jan 29, 2021 7:16:25 GMT
Scarlet dye - it was an insect. It was the norm in its time, very expensive. Here's the link. COCHINEALWasn't this one used for food coloring like strawberry ice cream ?
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christain
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Post by christain on Jan 29, 2021 12:19:13 GMT
I had the grip and scabbard on my Hanwei Cawood sword re-dyed a nice rich brown....away from that God-awful 'pumpkin orange' color. All the difference in the world. Looks 1000% better.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 12:51:36 GMT
Wasn't this one used for food coloring like strawberry ice cream ? Yeah. It still is.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jan 29, 2021 13:12:59 GMT
Perhaps I missed something and need to re-read. The cochineal dye was used as early as the 2nd century BC. But that was in Mesoamerica by the Aztecs and Mayans. It didn’t reach Europe until the 15th century. No doubt brought back be the Spanish.
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Post by joe_meadmaker on Jan 29, 2021 13:16:48 GMT
Different time period, but I just recently saw this video from Metatron on the Romans wearing red. The video is a few years old so other may have seen it already. He talks about how certain shades of red were more expensive than others.
I'm also a fan of brown grips. I don't currently have one, but I think they look awesome.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 13:33:46 GMT
Perhaps I missed something and need to re-read. The cochineal dye was used as early as the 2nd century BC. But that was in Mesoamerica by the Aztecs and Mayans. It didn’t reach Europe until the 15th century. No doubt brought back be the Spanish. Exactly right. From wiki.
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Post by nddave on Jan 29, 2021 13:33:51 GMT
The only color more grand than red was Purple and that was, as far as I've read literally exclusive to monarchy and other high officials of state or church. Cardinals wore red too which was a sign of their status in the church.
Personally I'm a fan of blue, sadly not much blue on the market.... being a grip wrapper myself, I usually look for more unique colors like blue but you usually have to dye the leather yourself. Something I haven't tried yet. Brown is pretty common to find in leather stores and is why most of my grips are brown tone or black.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 14:37:01 GMT
I don't care for bright colors for sword grips (or scabbards, belts, or baldrics, for that matter). Shades of brown or black are what I prefer. Just a personal preference.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jan 29, 2021 15:57:26 GMT
The only color more grand than red was Purple and that was, as far as I've read literally exclusive to monarchy and other high officials of state or church. Cardinals wore red too which was a sign of their status in the church. Personally I'm a fan of blue, sadly not much blue on the market.... being a grip wrapper myself, I usually look for more unique colors like blue but you usually have to dye the leather yourself. Something I haven't tried yet. Brown is pretty common to find in leather stores and is why most of my grips are brown tone or black. ...specifically Tyrian purple, and the process for obtaining the pigment was insane.
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jan 29, 2021 16:02:51 GMT
Going back to the OP, “I'm hoping the sword will be representative of a minor noble in the 11th-12th centuries and I'd like to be as accurate as possible with my choices.”. I see an assortment of colours stated and no doubt were used. However I am certain depending on time period and location these varied. My suggestion to you, rausa94, do your own research using paintings from the period of interest and preferably from the country of choice.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 29, 2021 16:10:37 GMT
Hello everyone! New member, first post! I know this topic has been touched on in the past, however I have seen some different information and haven't really been able to find a consensus. I'm planning on ordering my first "real sword" from Albion, but have been having a really hard time deciding grip colors. I'm hoping the sword will be representative of a minor noble in the 11th-12th centuries and I'd like to be as accurate as possible with my choices. I've heard that colored grips were quite popular among those who could afford them. I've also heard that brown as a dye color was undesirable and to be avoided. Does anyone have any further information on these two points? I personally think brown looks very good as a leather dye, and I feel like I've seen countless examples of brown leather in representations of medieval grips and scabbards, but was curious about the idea that it was a color to be eschewed. Any thoughts? I think a minor noble / warrior would have a fairly subdued sword/scabbard as a minor noble's primary responsibility to his liege lord would be to provide military support / fight when needed as part of his feudal duty. A minor noble might have just one decent sword where a more prominent noble may have for lack of a better description, a working sword and then a dress/presentation sword. Don't forget that the scabbard and its level of ornamentation also should be figured into the equation and again for a noble carrying an old family sword, the "status" might be presented in the scabbard. I prefer a little later period (1200 - 1350) and the scabbards are a little more embellished and utilize buckles. Scabbards from your period would lack buckles. Here is an Albion Yeoman with a brown grip I bought recently from another SBG member with a Tod's Workshop scabbard that was fortuitously available on Tod's website the same day....brown but with a little flair with a red belt. Albion Solingen in a Christian Fletcher brown scabbard for it. My Type XII-XIV by Mateusz Sulwoski bought from a fellow SBG'r that is a step up from the swords above.... Here is a much more flashy pairing of a Albion Sovereign with oxblood grip and a Albion commissioned scabbard by Eric McHugh that I had for a while...but finally decided it was too formal/dressy for me with the bright blue/red
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2021 20:31:16 GMT
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Post by nddave on Jan 29, 2021 20:34:41 GMT
Personally I'm a fan of blue, sadly not much blue on the market.... being a grip wrapper myself, I usually look for more unique colors like blue but you usually have to dye the leather yourself. Cool discussion in this thread. Hey Dave, I know you're not averse to budget swords. I also love blue - have you seen blue anywhere in the budget range? Wondering if I've missed something. I think the only place I've seen it aside from full custom is as an option on top-shelf production lines i.e. Albion... Yea Blue is rare, seen it on a few Windlass swords but aside from that it's either Valiant Armory or Albion unfortunately.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jan 29, 2021 20:49:13 GMT
I have some very nice lapis lazuli cabochons I intend to create settings for using electroforming/electroplating, and potentially incorporating into decorative elements of a scabbard. I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out an ideal color scheme for the leather elements to best contrast the rich ultramarine blue of the stones.
I welcome any suggestions.
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Post by Lord Newport on Jan 29, 2021 21:03:09 GMT
Cool discussion in this thread. Hey Dave, I know you're not averse to budget swords. I also love blue - have you seen blue anywhere in the budget range? Wondering if I've missed something. I think the only place I've seen it aside from full custom is as an option on top-shelf production lines i.e. Albion... Yea Blue is rare, seen it on a few Windlass swords but aside from that it's either Valiant Armory or Albion unfortunately. I regret not buying this when it was in stock over at KOA...
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