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Post by samuraisoul on Jan 1, 2021 2:20:49 GMT
Does anyone have any practical experience about cutting harder target with a folded steel blade? Anecdotes are fine, but I'm especially looking for anyone's hands on experience with how well or poorly a folded blade held up under constant cutting practice with things harder than waterbottles and pool noodles. I recently acquired a folded 1075 steel blade made by Shinken-sword, and am curious if I should consider cutting with this blade, or just leave her in new condition. One additional point of concern with this blade is how close the hamon runs to the edge in a couple of places. The hamon runs to just over an 1/8 of an inch from the ha in two places. I will post pictures below.
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 1, 2021 3:53:50 GMT
No personal experience, but I've been on this forum a long, long time, and have seen a lot of folded blades cutting a lot of things.
In general, there shouldn't be any difference between a folded blade and one that isn't, as far as most cutting goes, but folded blades carry the caveat of possible hidden delaminations which could cause sudden failure if stressed. No way of knowing until they do, though, and it's not like every folded blade is a ticking time bomb. 95% or better should be just as capable as any other blade.
Obligatory reminder that traditional Japanese swords are all folded, and many other cultures folded their steels, too.
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Post by samuraisoul on Jan 1, 2021 4:04:12 GMT
Thank you, Random. That is exactly what I was looking for. I have no experience with them. I've never cut with nihonto, or any kind of folded blade. I didn't know if there were any things to avoid.
If this blade delaminates, I doubt it would catastrophically fail, as all of the folds appear to be longitudinal. I imagine that it would probably just take a bend and some of the layers would crack at that point. Rendering the sword useless, but wouldn't shatter, I imagine.
Good point with the obligatory reminder about nihonto. I also now remember that many truly bad swords were made by the Japanese, as truly good ones. Thank you, I needed that reminder.
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Post by shepherd214 on Jan 1, 2021 5:23:29 GMT
Thank you, Random. That is exactly what I was looking for. I have no experience with them. I've never cut with nihonto, or any kind of folded blade. I didn't know if there were any things to avoid. If this blade delaminates, I doubt it would catastrophically fail, as all of the folds appear to be longitudinal. I imagine that it would probably just take a bend and some of the layers would crack at that point. Rendering the sword useless, but wouldn't shatter, I imagine. Good point with the obligatory reminder about nihonto. I also now remember that many truly bad swords were made by the Japanese, as truly good ones. Thank you, I needed that reminder. I always test my blades on hardwoods like oak and maple branches, sometimes 2x4s. Not in a harsh, axe type of way but some solid wacks on the edge and the sides to make sure theres no obvious edge rolling, make sure the blade wont snap right off the bat. Also give it some good thumbs against dense, padded furniture to make sure nothing will come loose, bend or rattle. Literally any type of blade should be able to handle that easily and it makes me know its safe. I've had one bad sword that rolled its edge on everything. Supposedly 9260 steel. Wasnt heat treated right at all. Got my refund on that crap immediately.
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Post by samuraisoul on Jan 1, 2021 20:38:07 GMT
That's good advice, Shepherd. Thank you, sir.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jan 1, 2021 21:13:26 GMT
Obligatory reminder that traditional Japanese swords are all folded, and many other cultures folded their steels, too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 21:16:33 GMT
Wow! What an image!
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Post by treeslicer on Jan 4, 2021 19:16:14 GMT
Does anyone have any practical experience about cutting harder target with a folded steel blade? Anecdotes are fine, but I'm especially looking for anyone's hands on experience with how well or poorly a folded blade held up under constant cutting practice with things harder than waterbottles and pool noodles. I recently acquired a folded 1075 steel blade made by Shinken-sword, and am curious if I should consider cutting with this blade, or just leave her in new condition. One additional point of concern with this blade is how close the hamon runs to the edge in a couple of places. The hamon runs to just over an 1/8 of an inch from the ha in two places. I will post pictures below.
Because I have a large grove (several acres) of bamboo available, I cut the stuff regularly as practice. The majority of my katana are folded steel.
Any current production DH ("clay tempered") folded steel katana made with 0.6% or higher carbon content steel (1060 or better) should be expected to routinely cut up to 2 inch (5 cm) diameter fresh green bamboo with a single cut (though that is pushing it, 1 to 1.5 inch is what I generally prefer), without damage other than ordinary wear, if the wielder is properly trained. If it doesn't, something is wrong.
Cutting bamboo over 1.5 inches diameter should be reserved for proof testing, IMHO, not routine practice. The limiting factor is the wall thickness; 3 inch (7.62 cm) bamboo has a joint wall around 0.4 inch (1 cm) thick. 1 inch bamboo joint walls are only 0.13 inches (0.33 cm) thick. Very big difference in the forces involved.
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Post by samuraisoul on Jan 4, 2021 19:49:33 GMT
Thank you, Treeslicer. I was fortunate enough to have an uncle who studied Toyama-ryu and Nakamura-ryu while stationed different places when he was in the Marine Corps. He showed me the basics, starting with te-no-uchi, hasuji, and most importantly the all important kime. I do not know if this is a commonly used word for stopping the sword after a cut, or even before, but it's how I was taught. He was not licensed to teach, so I am mudansha. I appreciate kenjutsu greatly, and am happy to be renewing my studies. The only formal school in my area is a mixed martial arts dojo, and while they offer Iaido classes, they won't specificy which ryuha they're teaching, so no thank you.
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Post by mack7 on Jan 4, 2021 19:58:11 GMT
I would not be overly concerned about the hamon and it's closeness to the ha. Might be more likely to take a set near them but better than a running crack and a sword breakage. Some may say the sword would wear out sooner after a few polishes I would contend the thickness would change just like any another with a single bevel. Nice looking blade!
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jan 4, 2021 20:13:04 GMT
I've cut a lot of things with many types of swords- both folded, mono, DH, etc. What it comes down to is the heat treating of the individual blade and the technique of the user. As Treeslicer stated, any decent blade will be able to easily handle 1.5" bamboo without any ill effects. The only way to be absolutely sure is to cut some.
The caveat to that is if you use your blade, there is a chance it will break. But there is only one way to know for certain. In any event, if you use the blade, it will get scratches on it. If keeping a mirror finish is important to you, then don't cut with that blade.
I am opposed to all "destructive testing" as done at home. All these "tests" show is that it is possible to abuse a blade to the point where it will break, and that tells you mostly nothing. If you run a sword through some established cutting targets such as tatami, rolled newspapers, hamhocks, etc, and the blade fails, then it was a bad sword to begin with. If it survives, then it is doing what it was made to do.
And take care of your stuff. Keep it clean and oiled, don't abuse it.
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Post by samuraisoul on Jan 4, 2021 20:23:32 GMT
Thank you, Mack.
Rufus, I agree with you about disliking destructive tests for the sake of destroying a blade. I dislike "safe queens" also, and do not intend to treat this katana like one. The answers that the incredibly helpful community are giving me just further reassure me that this sword is safe to cut with, and that I shouldn't hesitate to cut green bamboo, tatami, rolled newspaper, and things of equal density.
I know that the contrast in this finish was accomplished with acid etching, and I know that it will wear heavily with the first cutting session. Do you happen to have any advice for stripping the acid finish off and making the finish more uniform, once she begins to show cutting wear? I honestly look forward to having a more natural looking hada.
I always oil my blades. I make my own "choji oil" by putting half a dozen or so whole cloves into a bottle of inexpensive mineral oil, and letting sit. I have one bottle that is about three years old, smells wonderfully like cloves, and is on every single sword that I own, western as well as eastern. I also keep a terry cloth towel to wipe my swords with between cuts. I like carbon steel, and am very aware of how quickly it rusts in the florida humidity.
As this sword was made by Shinken-sword (Sheng, Tsunami-Dragon, a few other names I believe), I hope that it's heat treatment is on par with most of the regular production chinese forges. I know little about this maker, except that people on here tend to like the shaping of the blades. I don't have any reports on how well they are heat treated. I would be very curious to know if anyone has any information on that.
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Post by samuraisoul on Jan 4, 2021 21:07:26 GMT
Oh, a further question, if you all don't mind. PVC, how does this compare to green bamboo? I have considered cutting it in various sizes and thicknesses (schedules), but want to ask more knowledgeable cutting practicioners, first.
The reason I ask is that I don't have access to free green bamboo, and have to buy the materials that I cut. Plenty of soft wood branches that could be had, but I'd rather cut something that simulates bamboo. (Thank the Samurai Executioner manga for my bamboo cutting obsession.)
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jan 4, 2021 22:34:35 GMT
PVC, how does this compare to green bamboo? It really doesn't. It's much more brittle and likely to damage your sword.
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Post by samuraisoul on Jan 4, 2021 23:27:50 GMT
Thank you, Blade. I wouldn't have thought that, thank you for pointing that out. My slightly redneck tendencies would have had me stacking up 1" pvc on my cutting stand.
Are there any good inexpensive alternatives to bamboo that anyone has used to good effect?
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Post by randomnobody on Jan 4, 2021 23:57:10 GMT
Considering bamboo is basically a weed, in that it grows and spreads so fast that many warn against ever trying to grow it because you'll never be rid of it again, I can't imagine there's anything that could match it for availability and affordability, never mind the attributes desired for test cutting.
Most folks just use plastic bottles filled with water, but that's hardly comparable. Bamboo and tatami are the defacto cutting targets for good reason.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jan 5, 2021 0:34:09 GMT
Thank you, Blade. I wouldn't have thought that, thank you for pointing that out. My slightly redneck tendencies would have had me stacking up 1" pvc on my cutting stand. Are there any good inexpensive alternatives to bamboo that anyone has used to good effect? There are other kinds of plastic or rubber tubing that are more malleable and less brittle than PVC. I can't remember what it's called but I know Lancelot Chan uses some in newspaper rolls as a bone analogue in his cutting videos (check the backyard cutting subforum). I posted a video review of a Shikoto Katana in the reviews section a few weeks ago showing what happened when I struck the PVC cutting stands holding my bottles. I was able to cut through it several times, but also shattered some of them outright, and I was honestly lucky not to chip my edge. Poor edge alignment on that cut probably would have killed the sword. You could always plant your own bamboo grove if you have the climate and space.
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Post by samuraisoul on Jan 5, 2021 0:39:16 GMT
Unfortunately, I live in an area where there is very little accessible countryside. I live very near Eglin Air Force base. Which is, land wise, the largest air force base in the world. The Air Force owns most of the property outside of the towns around where I live, and cutting of anything on Air Force property is prohibited, without special licenses, which are bought up every year by professional firewood sellers. I do not know anyone who has acreage here, where I could go cut bamboo. I've kept my eyes open for groves of it, and haven't seen any that aren't on Air Force property. I've even checked the areas around the marinas and the public parks down here. No luck. The Air Force properties are all actively patrolled by Security Police in trucks and on ATVs, so it's not worth the fines or possible arrest to go try to harvest it. There are alot of installations in the woods out there, so I don't blame them.
My search for cuttings materials will continue. I will definitely report if I find a suitable substitute, and welcome any suggestions.
I don't own property where I could plant a grove, either, unfortunately. Nor do I know anyone who would let me plant it. If anyone lives around here and has a bunch to spare, I'll gladly go pick it up!
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jan 5, 2021 0:42:25 GMT
Try the heavy-duty cardboard shipping tubes that Cold Steel loves to use in its videos.
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Post by samuraisoul on Jan 5, 2021 0:43:04 GMT
Thank you, Blade. I know PEX is softer and more malleable than PVC. Has anyone tried cutting this?
Blade, do you have a good, inexpensive source for these cardboard tubes? I've found them at the UPS store but they were about $10 a tube. Alittle rich for something to cut, for me, at least.
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