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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Dec 27, 2020 12:20:08 GMT
I just purchased an APOC Yataghan secondhand in the classifieds (barely used by first owner). When I put it through tests including wood chopping, light prying, and being thrown a number of times, the blade snapped several inches above the handle. I believe it was a result of a botched heat treatment and runaway grain growth. I will attach the best pictures I can so that our resident smiths can tell us if the grain looks nasty. Other than the blade snapping, I found the sword to be an awesome tactical piece that subs in well for a Filipino blade and balances cut and thrust very well. It's a potent blade for its size and packs enough cut to really be called a sword. The G10 scales are grippy, attractive, and comfortable. The ergos are really good. The blade had a full flat grind and distal taper. The scabbard is a fiberglass body (good) with a kydex chape that is supposed to hold the blade securely by being molded to fill two divots on the blade scales. Unfortunately, the retention part was poorly executed and the blade fell out with a gentle shake. The mounting points made it easy to lash the blade to my backpack and draw it over the shoulder (which is FINE with a blade this short). If it had proved durable enough, it would have been my new favorite short sword. It is very much NOT just a $150 Cold Steel machete. Plain, yes. Ahistorical, absolutely. Useful? As much as a sword can be. I'd like to hear from the manufacturer about whether they consider this to be an example of a defective heat treat. I haven't contacted them yet but I suppose I can if they don't chime in on their own. I'd really, really like to add more APOC blades to my armory, but I'll have to be convinced this one was a rare QC flaw.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Dec 27, 2020 12:53:18 GMT
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Dec 27, 2020 13:25:22 GMT
Sorry about your blade. If it means anything a APCO Yataghan is now on my list. It may even take the place of a machete.
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Post by markus313 on Dec 27, 2020 13:47:57 GMT
Thank you for the review, much appreciated. I just think you get things right with your reviews. Can’t really comment on the heat treatment/grain structure. I have never pried as hard with my blades, tbh, at least not as far back towards the hilt (bent a cheap Lord of Battles rondel dagger like a twig after punching it through a slit of a hanging log to about two thirds towards the hilt, that blade seemed really soft though). But I sure am glad you did with yours Sorry it did break though, you deserve credit for going tough on stuff you review.
Still think the APOC Yataghan makes for a great tool/weapon (don't you think the remaining upper part would make for a nice knife when modified?). Would love to hear what the manufacturer has to say about the break, too. And from other members as well, who are more into the manufacturing side of things.
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Post by Eric Bergeron on Dec 27, 2020 16:04:49 GMT
Looks to me like a heat treat issue, it's a shame as it looks like a nice blade.
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Post by Kane Shen on Dec 27, 2020 18:51:36 GMT
Your findings are in line with what others have put the APOC line swords through have discovered. It’s a shame the maker can’t realize Atrim’s interesting designs. Damn, that heat treatment looks bad. Thank you for confirming this again. You might have saved some people a hospital trip.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Dec 27, 2020 22:31:15 GMT
And I expect most people never would fatigue their APOC as much as I did here, so it's hard to say how widespread this problem is. I probably could have cut bottles with it for fifty years without an issue. Or not.
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Post by treeslicer on Dec 28, 2020 2:57:06 GMT
Another fine review, thanks.
FWIW, I have a suspicion that I'd like to share, that this sort of failure may be inevitable with this class of tool/weapon. The APOC Yataghan is a .typical example of an assembly-line production machete, made from mill steel using mass production techniques, and one-size-fits-all through hardened. This is similar to a number of Milspec issue machetes, from various contractors, which I have broken through the years, in an identical manner to what you show. Since I ceased to carry these, in favor of "backyard-forge" Philippine truck-spring bolos, some hand-folded laminated and forged sword blades. and a few authentic kukris, I have had no more failures.
The "machete" is supposed to be a brush chopping and slashing tool designed to survive repeated blows against hardwood over a lifetime of use. I would venture that achieving such performance is incompatible with large runs of factory engineered "contract-style" blades, no matter how OAF they look coming out of the box.
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Post by pellius on Dec 28, 2020 3:37:12 GMT
I’ve straight up chopped wood with my TFW Itak Tagalog, which I bought used for that purpose. Of my collection, it is probably the closest in specs to the APOC yataghan. It has endured many sessions of fence line clearing / root digging / limb prying and chopping sessions, and performed flawlessly.
It’s kind of an apples to oranges comparison considering the TFW costs about twice as much, but I mention it to affirm that steel is certainly capable of shrugging off such mild abuse as shown in the video if correctly heat treated.
This is disappointing. I had high expectations for the APOC line, and had several models on my wish list.
Anyway, thank you for the great review.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Dec 28, 2020 8:13:45 GMT
Thank you for the review, much appreciated. I just think you get things right with your reviews. Can’t really comment on the heat treatment/grain structure. I have never pried as hard with my blades, tbh, at least not as far back towards the hilt (bent a cheap Lord of Battles rondel dagger like a twig after punching it through a slit of a hanging log to about two thirds towards the hilt, that blade seemed really soft though). But I sure am glad you did with yours Sorry it did break though, you deserve credit for going tough on stuff you review.
Still think the APOC Yataghan makes for a great tool/weapon (don't you think the remaining upper part would make for a nice knife when modified?). Would love to hear what the manufacturer has to say about the break, too. And from other members as well, who are more into the manufacturing side of things. Yeah, I suppose I could grind part of the broken blade into a hidden tang and make a knife. It's practice if nothing else.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Dec 28, 2020 8:17:55 GMT
I’ve straight up chopped wood with my TFW Itak Tagalog, which I bought used for that purpose. Of my collection, it is probably the closest in specs to the APOC yataghan. It has endured many sessions of fence line clearing / root digging / limb prying and chopping sessions, and performed flawlessly. It’s kind of an apples to oranges comparison considering the TFW costs about twice as much, but I mention it to affirm that steel is certainly capable of shrugging off such mild abuse as shown in the video if correctly heat treated. This is disappointing. I had high expectations for the APOC line, and had several models on my wish list. Anyway, thank you for the great review. It's a shame, but I may have to commission something specific from one of the Nepalese smiths to get a chopper with more swordlike qualities that will hold up. That'll be more like $400-$500 in all likelihood. I still want G10. I also liked the idea of collecting a number of matching APOCs.
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Post by themuffinslayer on Dec 29, 2020 3:56:30 GMT
Well. That's concerning. Good review, shame it didn't hold up. I can't say for sure one way or the other how bad or good that particular grain is myself, but I'd certainly like to hear what the manufacturer says when/if they get back to you. Sorry to see it.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Dec 29, 2020 4:23:13 GMT
Also, I sincerely apologize for the terrible audio quality. I promise I'll get a real mic. I have a Go Pro now, so that's progress.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Dec 30, 2020 0:29:01 GMT
I just sent this email to CAS Iberia: Good morning, I recently bought an APOC Yataghan secondhand and broke it during testing and review. The testing can be seen here: Discussion here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/62877/apoc-yataghan-destructive-testing-failure?page=1&scrollTo=844693 I would like to know if this is considered a defective heat treat, and therefore the kind of breakage that would be covered by warranty. I understand that CAS Iberia's warranty only extends to the original purchaser. However, if you consider the yataghan above to be defective (please look at the steel grain shown in the forum post), I would be happy to test a replacement and share those results with the sword community so we are not left with only the first example. Please ` advise.
I'll let you all know if/how they respond. As an aside, I also emailed Miles Ratanaprukpan of the Aranyik machete/tool company and asked if there are any plans to bring back the latin and enep machetes. He said yes, he just needs to source steel for them and that's been an issue. I have one of each of those machetes and they are possibly the best I've ever tried. So much so that I'll be getting more of them to customize in different ways once they're back. If the yataghan is a bust, a dressed up Aranyik latin should never fail you.
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Dec 30, 2020 1:00:54 GMT
You can still get some similar looking blades from Thailand on Ebay. Right now you can't get Miles' excellent hand ground convex edges and quality control. Aranyik is a place, but also the name Miles chose for his brand. Blades from Thailand finished up at his shop in Hawaii.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2020 1:07:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2020 14:10:13 GMT
When you are prying @ 03:25-03:40 is probably when the blade cracked and then subsequently "popped" apart in a blow. Well through heat treated blades should show a very uniform and fine sand look. I am assuming the rust spots you show on the grain is post mortem but if apparent when it happened, there was already a fault line. nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/27/jresv27n2p159_A1b.pdfWhen my Godfred broke, I was splitting small chunks of hickory and rather than just break, it kind of ripped and left itself attached to one edge. It was a coarser look but the same issue. Grain growth before quenching. Being held at heat for too long. It is a somewhat sad and worrisome fact that some blades might last forever with poorer heat treatments but a reality that batch heat treating is an ongoing production issue. How many from that one batch may be affected? Unfortunately, I have yet to see any blade recalls whatsoever (knives, swords, bladed weapons in general). CAS will likely send you to the vendor for a refund and thank you for the report. Cheers GC
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Dec 30, 2020 14:19:52 GMT
When you are prying @ 03:25-03:40 is probably when the blade cracked and then subsequently "popped" apart in a blow. Well through heat treated blades should show a very uniform and fine sand look. I am assuming the rust spots you show on the grain is post mortem but if apparent when it happened, there was already a fault line. nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/27/jresv27n2p159_A1b.pdfWhen my Godfred broke, I was splitting small chunks of hickory and rather than just break, it kind of ripped and left itself attached to one edge. It was a coarser look but the same issue. Grain growth before quenching. Being held at heat for too long. It is a somewhat sad and worrisome fact that some blades might last forever with poorer heat treatments but a reality that batch heat treating is an ongoing production issue. How many from that one batch may be affected? Unfortunately, I have yet to see any blade recalls whatsoever (knives, swords, bladed weapons in general). CAS will likely send you to the vendor for a refund and thank you for the report. Cheers GC I wouldn't have been surprised if the prying did it in, but I was surprised that the fracture occurred several inches below the point I was actually torquing on the most. My most vigorous lateral bending was aimed right at the center of the blade. I think the rust happened post mortem. I put the pieces away wet after testing and then took pictures nearly two days later.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2020 16:26:35 GMT
If the distal taper was concave and reducing a lot by that section, that would be a most reason to fail there. When viewing the video, note where the curve of bending ends and what I see is at that section (the arc starts thereabouts). Although the pob is listed at KOA of just an inch, that is just short of that and a concave distal trait would point to that. Gus is big on the concave distal for a low polar moment but whether that carried over to this design and production, I do not know. That was a hefty tug on a short blade but should have taken that without a wimper.
I was dealing with CAS on the phone back then and during a period when Paul Chen had an email. This not being Hanwei is just a part but the batch heat treating could affect many.
Cheers GC
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Post by Adventurer'sBlade on Jan 4, 2021 8:47:03 GMT
No response from CAS yet. It is the holiday season though. We'll see. I have seen one blade recall. Gerber issued a recall on their Bear Grylls Parang Machetes in 2012 due to tang-handle structural flaws. The very next year they issued ANOTHER recall because the parang had a tendency to slice through its stitched sheath and into your hand if gripped around the mouth and pulled out hard. Riveted sheath now. I had received one as a gift. I shipped it in and received a new one at no personal cost. Not a bad little slicer, actually. Hollow ground bevel though. Mine hasn't seen much use. sgbonline.com/gerber-recalls-119000-bear-grylls-machetes/I wouldn't really expect to see that kind of recall on the APOC swords. For one, I'm sure they're moving a far lower volume of them than Gerber was. Possibly by two orders of magnitude. Next, I didn't get hurt. Finally, you wouldn't have to be Saul Goodman to argue that my use of the blade was beyond manufacturer's intent. WE as sword people are in agreement that a properly tempered short blade should be able to take what I did, but the argument could be made. There's no real threat of a mass tort lawsuit if they bite their thumb at me, unlike Gerber's predicament. But it'd be great if they acknowledged this was a bad heat treat and replaced it. And did the same for anyone else who has this sort of catastrophic failure.
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