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Post by dillonjury on Sept 1, 2020 20:18:48 GMT
I’ve been doing a lot of lurking on the forum here trying to gather information, and am quickly being sucked into wanting more swords. I acquired my first sword recently but I am having some issues identifying exactly what the sword is, and I was hoping someone here might be able to help! What I think I’ve found so far is that is a Prussian cuirassier pallasch, however there are so many little variations and iterations I’m having trouble identifying the exact type and if I did okay with the purchase price. The handle is unlike about any one I can find online except one sword I found from an old auction (circa 08’) that was an exact match talking about Russian influence, but I don’t know how accurate that is. In addition to identification, is restoring these swords frowned upon or will affect the value? For example replacing wire on the handle, polishing the brass guard, or cleaning the scabbard? I’m not sure if this scabbard is supposed to be “shiny” raw steel or it should be browned or blued dark color as it is (minus surface rust) so that would be helpful to know as well! The sword has a considerable amount of wear near the loops on the scabbard but it also has different numbers than the sword does so was this replaced? The blade has a small amount of wiggle in the handle as well and a couple of “battle” marks on the guard and one on the back of the blade from some sort of impact / gouge. Link to some photos: pasteboard.co/Jp74PES.jpgpasteboard.co/Jp75548.jpgpasteboard.co/Jp72rbe.jpgpasteboard.co/Jp72PHX.jpgpasteboard.co/Jp731sk.jpgpasteboard.co/Jp73jEo.jpg
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 2, 2020 0:23:55 GMT
That's a nice looking sword and welcome to the forum. The leather on the grip needs a treating of leather conditioner, the sooner the better.
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Post by dillonjury on Sept 2, 2020 1:01:35 GMT
That's a nice looking sword and welcome to the forum. The leather on the grip needs a treating of leather conditioner, the sooner the better. Thanks for the response! Would any leather conditioner work (such as for a leather jacket or car seats) or would those be harmful? Thanks again for the welcome!
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Post by pellius on Sept 2, 2020 1:03:43 GMT
Welcome!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 2, 2020 12:55:19 GMT
That's a nice looking sword and welcome to the forum. The leather on the grip needs a treating of leather conditioner, the sooner the better. Thanks for the response! Would any leather conditioner work (such as for a leather jacket or car seats) or would those be harmful? Thanks again for the welcome! It's been my experience that any conditioner will do although some people are opinionated. The trick is not to let the leather dry out.
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Post by alexkjren on Sept 2, 2020 18:22:59 GMT
Welcome! That's a beautiful sword! Typically, yes restoring swords is not recommended for beginners. Though how strongly this is discouraged varies depending on the sword. At one end of the spectrum, say: authentic nihonto (Japanese swords, i.e. katana) it's a huge no-no and recommended to find a professional who specializes in restoring/polishing nihonto which can cost $100s - $1,000s. And the other end of the spectrum are swords that fit the time period of yours where some examples are considered a no-no to DIY while other (based on availability and production quality) are considered fine for beginners to try touching up. There are people in this sub-forum much more knowledgeable than me on this topic. They will be able to help you: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/board/60/renaissance-military-swordsIf you do decide to do this yourself, please post in-process pictures! Good luck! Alex
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Post by dillonjury on Sept 2, 2020 19:11:42 GMT
Thanks for the response! Would any leather conditioner work (such as for a leather jacket or car seats) or would those be harmful? Thanks again for the welcome! It's been my experience that any conditioner will do although some people are opinionated. The trick is not to let the leather dry out. Thanks for your response. After some consideration, I tried a small test section with on hand leather conditioner I’ve had good results with on other items, and it seems to have helped. Under the bright light I was working in, I did however find that much more leather was actually completely missing and what I was actually seeing was wood in many spots. The leather seems to be mostly too far gone to rejuvenate, and has already begun to chip in some places from being neglected. Likely connected to the leather issue, the wire is a bit loose in some areas, but I’m leaving that be for now as maybe the wood grip has simply shrunken a bit? Now in my hands I’ll try to keep what leather that is left hydrated but it may be too late. The only other thing I would like to do is remove the grease stains / darkening on the brass guard. I’ve been reading mixed things on this, but I feel like carefully enough without the use of abrasives of any kind when possible should be able to yield a decent result. For the most stubborn of spots, 0000 steel or brass wool has been my friend in the gun world to not scratch or jack up delicate finishes or soft metals. I assume if being careful these principals should apply to the sword? Beyond that I’ll leave it be! I would like to buy or make the leather hangers / lanyard I see in time period photos, if anyone has a connect for those to be purchased that would be great! Thanks again for the feedback!
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Post by dillonjury on Sept 2, 2020 19:41:42 GMT
Welcome! That's a beautiful sword! Typically, yes restoring swords is not recommended for beginners. Though how strongly this is discouraged varies depending on the sword. At one end of the spectrum, say: authentic nihonto (Japanese swords, i.e. katana) it's a huge no-no and recommended to find a professional who specializes in restoring/polishing nihonto which can cost $100s - $1,000s. And the other end of the spectrum are swords that fit the time period of yours where some examples are considered a no-no to DIY while other (based on availability and production quality) are considered fine for beginners to try touching up. There are people in this sub-forum much more knowledgeable than me on this topic. They will be able to help you: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/board/60/renaissance-military-swordsIf you do decide to do this yourself, please post in-process pictures! Good luck! Alex Thank you for the link to the sub forum, I’ll check it out! I’m trying to learn all I can and this forum has been a primary resource for just about everything! The amount of time and work that goes into all these posts is amazing and definitely a gate for new possible collectors. I’m looking to be as careful as I can with anything I’m doing with the sword, and aiming to preserve rather than alter anything. Thanks again!
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Post by nebulatech on Sept 2, 2020 23:32:21 GMT
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Post by pellius on Sept 3, 2020 0:20:59 GMT
Your guard looks to be in really good shape. I’ve used mineral oil to gently clean surface gunk off of a brass guard without touching its “patina.” Metal polish should return it to the same deep brass luster as when new, if that’s what you want. I like Mothers, but opinions vary. Flitz is also popular. To me, the guard and pommel do not appear to need steel wool or other such abrasives. If you choose to use them, they will definitely remove the patina. Personally, I think patina is just evidence of neglect, but opinions on that point vary widely and... abrasively. 🙄 Anyway, very nice sword, whatever you choose to do.
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Post by dillonjury on Sept 3, 2020 1:27:36 GMT
Your guard looks to be in really good shape. I’ve used mineral oil to gently clean surface gunk off of a brass guard without touching its “patina.” Metal polish should return it to the same deep brass luster as when new, if that’s what you want. I like Mothers, but opinions vary. Flitz is also popular. To me, the guard and pommel do not appear to need steel wool or other such abrasives. If you choose to use them, they will definitely remove the patina. Personally, I think patina is just evidence of neglect, but opinions on that point vary widely and... abrasively. 🙄 Anyway, very nice sword, whatever you choose to do. I tend to agree with on the “patina” subject. Also considering brass Can get this appearance or darken pretty quickly it will just come back! I tend to compare it to a car with a dull or faded paint job, some polishing or waxing isn’t doing anything other than extending its life a bit longer to me anyway. If the sword belonged to someone significant, I would leave it all as be, as at that point it’s more valuable as a possession of that person than a sword. In this case, it should be a sword and as nice as the current condition warrants! Carefully of course, using 60 grit sandpaper or spray painting the scabbard black would be another story, haha! Thanks again for the input and feedback on the restoration subject, I’ve used both those products in the past and haven’t fully decided how aggressive I want to be on the brass. I figure it’s likely been polished a half dozen times in its life anyhow. My big question, is if I did okay with the purchase price of $500 all things considered? And the guard seems to have a 66’ on it and the blade is 70’, was this replaced? I assume that would mean the blade was replaced. Was this common, or am I missing the mark entirely with those numbers? Thanks again everyone!
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Post by dillonjury on Sept 3, 2020 1:30:03 GMT
Thanks for that! I’ve never seen this product I’ll definitely be buying some!
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Post by pellius on Sept 3, 2020 2:14:38 GMT
I tend to agree with on the “patina” subject. Also considering brass Can get this appearance or darken pretty quickly it will just come back! I tend to compare it to a car with a dull or faded paint job, some polishing or waxing isn’t doing anything other than extending its life a bit longer to me anyway. If the sword belonged to someone significant, I would leave it all as be, as at that point it’s more valuable as a possession of that person than a sword. In this case, it should be a sword and as nice as the current condition warrants! Carefully of course, using 60 grit sandpaper or spray painting the scabbard black would be another story, haha! Thanks again for the input and feedback on the restoration subject, I’ve used both those products in the past and haven’t fully decided how aggressive I want to be on the brass. I figure it’s likely been polished a half dozen times in its life anyhow. My big question, is if I did okay with the purchase price of $500 all things considered? And the guard seems to have a 66’ on it and the blade is 70’, was this replaced? I assume that would mean the blade was replaced. Was this common, or am I missing the mark entirely with those numbers? Thanks again everyone! If the sword makes you happy and you had the 500 bucks to spare, then it was worth it imho. Just for quick reference, the hilt on my Dutch m1814 No.3 saber was in pretty decent underlying shape, but pretty dirty and fairly heavy with "patina." With sparse and careful use of 2000 grit sandpaper and Mothers Mag polish, it went from this: to this: (Yep. It still needs just a little polishing out. It is currently a work in progress.)Personally, I think the saber looks much more dignified now, and more accurately conveys what this sword was about when it was first put to use. Its identity is not in question, nor is its approximate age, so the "patina" served no real purpose other than to just look old. However, many collectors would consider this saber's value to now be almost entirely destroyed, and would not want it in their collection regardless of its monetary value. I only offer this because you ask about the monetary value of your sword. If you are measuring its value by what others might pay you to obtain it, cleaning it (or "scraping" it, as some would put it) might destroy much of its value and limit the pool of potentially interested buyers. Since I have no intent to sell my antiques, their value to me is simply that of any hobby; to bring a bit of joy, fulfillment, and satisfaction. Besides, given enough time after I'm gone, my actions for better or worse will be a "legitimate" part of their history.
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Post by nebulatech on Sept 3, 2020 2:37:28 GMT
I think $500 is fine for a historic blade and fuctional saber. Could you maybe have gotten a similar sword for $100 less? Possibly, and if so, you paid a $100 premium for THIS sword, and to be done shopping (for THIS purchase, because you will buy more).
I'm just throwing out numbers but the point is, even if you paid too much (and I'm not saying you did), you only overpaid a small percentage of your total purchase amount.
Just one way to look at it.
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Post by dillonjury on Sept 3, 2020 2:44:40 GMT
I tend to agree with on the “patina” subject. Also considering brass Can get this appearance or darken pretty quickly it will just come back! I tend to compare it to a car with a dull or faded paint job, some polishing or waxing isn’t doing anything other than extending its life a bit longer to me anyway. If the sword belonged to someone significant, I would leave it all as be, as at that point it’s more valuable as a possession of that person than a sword. In this case, it should be a sword and as nice as the current condition warrants! Carefully of course, using 60 grit sandpaper or spray painting the scabbard black would be another story, haha! Thanks again for the input and feedback on the restoration subject, I’ve used both those products in the past and haven’t fully decided how aggressive I want to be on the brass. I figure it’s likely been polished a half dozen times in its life anyhow. My big question, is if I did okay with the purchase price of $500 all things considered? And the guard seems to have a 66’ on it and the blade is 70’, was this replaced? I assume that would mean the blade was replaced. Was this common, or am I missing the mark entirely with those numbers? Thanks again everyone! If the sword makes you happy and you had the 500 bucks to spare, then it was worth it imho. Just for quick reference, the hilt on my Dutch m1814 No.3 saber was in pretty decent underlying shape, but pretty dirty and fairly heavy with "patina." With sparse and careful use of 2000 grit sandpaper and Mothers Mag polish, it went from this: to this: (Yep. It still needs just a little polishing out. It is currently a work in progress.)Personally, I think the saber looks much more dignified now, and more accurately conveys what this sword was about when it was first put to use. Its identity is not in question, nor is its approximate age, so the "patina" served no real purpose other than to just look old. However, many collectors would consider this saber's value to now be almost entirely destroyed, and would not want it in their collection regardless of its monetary value. I only offer this because you ask about the monetary value of your sword. If you are measuring its value by what others might pay you to obtain it, cleaning it (or "scraping" it, as some would put it) might destroy much of its value and limit the pool of potentially interested buyers. Since I have no intent to sell my antiques, their value to me is simply that of any hobby; to bring a bit of joy, fulfillment, and satisfaction. Besides, given enough time after I'm gone, my actions for better or worse will be a "legitimate" part of their history. Wow that looks great! Thanks for sharing both perspective and an example! You’re right about value, ive been conditioned to be extra careful with touching ANYTHING in the antique / curio gun world, as well as done my fair share of buying / trading / and selling I tend to worry about future value, even when I don’t expect to. I think In this case I’ll just rake it slow and “clean” it up but not do any polishing yet, as I suppose I can always do that, but I can’t put it back. Really like that sword based off what I can see! The next one I want is a definitely a Imperial Russian Tula made shashka or dragoon m1848! Among many others! I would have no problem getting a discount on a nicely done “restoration”. I think the attitude on this restoration / conservation will change in the coming decades. What’s the point of keeping things “the way they are” if there is no significance to its condition, other than it got old.
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Post by dillonjury on Sept 3, 2020 2:46:46 GMT
I think $500 is fine for a historic blade and fuctional saber. Could you maybe have gotten a similar sword for $100 less? Possibly, and if so, you paid a $100 premium for THIS sword, and to be done shopping (for THIS purchase, because you will buy more). I'm just throwing out numbers but the point is, even if you paid too much (and I'm not saying you did), you only overpaid a small percentage of your total purchase amount. Just one way to look at it. You make a good point! Admittedly it was a bit of blind purchase, but I couldn’t walk away from it. Seems like I did “okay” for a virtually uneducated purchase! I’m already hunting for my next blade! Thanks for the encouraging and straight response!
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Post by pellius on Sept 3, 2020 3:11:45 GMT
I think $500 is fine for a historic blade and fuctional saber. Could you maybe have gotten a similar sword for $100 less? Possibly, and if so, you paid a $100 premium for THIS sword, and to be done shopping (for THIS purchase, because you will buy more). I'm just throwing out numbers but the point is, even if you paid too much (and I'm not saying you did), you only overpaid a small percentage of your total purchase amount. Just one way to look at it. Well said! “What’s the point of keeping things “the way they are” if there is no significance to its condition, other than it got old.” Also well said! (I don’t know how to quote two folks in one post.) 🙂 Not to shoulder hop your thread, but my ongoing effort to clean up this old saber is commemorated here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/60906/refurbish-project-belgian-m1802-dutchBased on Uhlan’s thread, here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/52806/antique-blades-cleaning-polishing-uhlanIf you decide to start cleaning up old swords, or buy your next one with restoration in mind, they might be worth a look. Cheers!
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Post by dillonjury on Sept 3, 2020 3:29:29 GMT
I think $500 is fine for a historic blade and fuctional saber. Could you maybe have gotten a similar sword for $100 less? Possibly, and if so, you paid a $100 premium for THIS sword, and to be done shopping (for THIS purchase, because you will buy more). I'm just throwing out numbers but the point is, even if you paid too much (and I'm not saying you did), you only overpaid a small percentage of your total purchase amount. Just one way to look at it. Well said! “What’s the point of keeping things “the way they are” if there is no significance to its condition, other than it got old.” Also well said! (I don’t know how to quote two folks in one post.) 🙂 Not to shoulder hop your thread, but my ongoing effort to clean up this old saber is commemorated here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/60906/refurbish-project-belgian-m1802-dutchBased on Uhlan’s thread, here: sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/52806/antique-blades-cleaning-polishing-uhlanIf you decide to start cleaning up old swords, or buy your next one with restoration in mind, they might be worth a look. Cheers! Absolutely looks like you are doing great work! Entertaining and informational thread to read through to supplement Uhlan‘s instructional post! I will definitely be revisiting this thread to read on further when I have more down time. Luckily my blade is in decent shape, ironically likely due to the fact that someone before me an unknown amount of years ago probably cleaned it up!
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Sept 3, 2020 13:49:33 GMT
“For the most stubborn of spots, 0000 steel or brass wool has been my friend in the gun world to not scratch or jack up delicate finishes or soft metals. I assume if being careful these principals should apply to the sword?”
Most anything you apply can be considered an abrasive, even polish. The difference is in the degree of aggressiveness. You’ll be OK going with 000 steel wool with a light oil. It’s a bit more aggressive than 0000 but won’t harm steel. I’ve used it for decades on firearms and swords/knives. I never tried it on brass. “Beyond that I’ll leave it be! I would like to buy or make the leather hangers / lanyard I see in time period photos, if anyone has a connect for those to be purchased that would be great!”
Sword hanger can be found at a number of places. Kult of Athena has them. For a starter: www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=SNLA6517BK&name=Sword+Hangers www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=LB25364&name=Adjustable+Sword+Hangers I've misplaced my list of sword knot vendors. Go to Uhlan ’s old posts for ideas. He is a master at restoration. Pellius also has experience and is learning under Uhlan . Then there is Jordan Williams with some knowledge. But Uhlan is the master.
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Post by nebulatech on Sept 3, 2020 15:35:56 GMT
My first thought was "You can just make those, you just need a rivet die, some black leather and... oh wait it's $9. Nope, I can't touch that for anywhere NEAR $9 Sometimes my DIY nature takes me down a rabbit hole and time sink. Those hangers look great and highly affordable.
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