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Post by Verity on Aug 27, 2020 1:05:51 GMT
Thank you everyone for your guidance and translation! I hope to be an active member. Welcome to the party! Amusingly, I am seeing Konno-San and Stephen on Monday. 😎
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Post by MOK on Aug 27, 2020 7:52:20 GMT
Thank you everyone for your guidance and translation! I hope to be an active member. Welcome aboard!
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 27, 2020 16:10:16 GMT
Phoule provided the translation for you, I think the smith name would be 雲秀 - Unhide (as the characters are often read like that on swordsmith signatures), however I have not found any single source that would have romanji for the name. The smith is very unknown. For example Markus Seskos smith index has the majority of swordsmiths that have lived in Japan and he is not featured in the book. Unfortunately I do not focus on swords of this period so I do not have books or sources that would be focused on WWII period. Markus has an interesting Gendaito book/resource project that might shed light on some unknown smiths of WWII era, the project has been under works for a good while. Meirin Sangyo has one sword I was able to find as reference: kako.nipponto.co.jp/swords/KT121170.htm You can note that it has different style of signature to your sword, and I do think I prefer the one on your sword. The red paint on tang has most likely been some sort of assembly number etc. I think the signature is most likely genuine. One problem as you described is that it is often financially not feasible to restore "basic" swords. Restoration work by professionals costs and amateur attempts on restoration are in general frowned upon by Japanese sword collectors, so it is bit of a stalemate on some items.
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Post by Verity on Aug 27, 2020 16:37:18 GMT
Phoule provided the translation for you, I think the smith name would be 雲秀 - Unhide (as the characters are often read like that on swordsmith signatures), however I have not found any single source that would have romanji for the name. The smith is very unknown. For example Markus Seskos smith index has the majority of swordsmiths that have lived in Japan and he is not featured in the book. Unfortunately I do not focus on swords of this period so I do not have books or sources that would be focused on WWII period. Markus has an interesting Gendaito book/resource project that might shed light on some unknown smiths of WWII era, the project has been under works for a good while. Meirin Sangyo has one sword I was able to find as reference: kako.nipponto.co.jp/swords/KT121170.htm You can note that it has different style of signature to your sword, and I do think I prefer the one on your sword. The red paint on tang has most likely been some sort of assembly number etc. I think the signature is most likely genuine. One problem as you described is that it is often financially not feasible to restore "basic" swords. Restoration work by professionals costs and amateur attempts on restoration are in general frowned upon by Japanese sword collectors, so it is bit of a stalemate on some items. Yeah. I agree from a purely financial perspective. But as randomnobody put it: if you are planning to keep the sword, why not make the leap even if it is a financial sink. Let's be honest. MOST of this hobby is not profitable in the end for us. I hate that profit and investment cost is cited as a reason not to do restoration. I look at it like caretaking the future. Do we let a piece of history fall into dust and rust, or do we preserve it so the next generation can appreciate the history of the sword. I prefer the latter. My aforementioned visit to Konno is likely to be full of "that isn't worth polishing." and my response will be "it is to me, so please do so."
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Post by nebulatech on Aug 28, 2020 1:45:21 GMT
Jussi thank you for putting your time forward to research this for me. Is it possible, since the swordsmith is obscure and not found in lists of smiths for this era that the sword is older/newer? The opinion went straight to "this is a WW2 era sword" even without knowing the smith. I'm assuming it has something to do with the blade itself (and I'm not disputing, just asking for clarification). I have read that really old swords are more like a tachi, with a deep curve....
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Post by Verity on Aug 28, 2020 2:09:11 GMT
Jussi thank you for putting your time forward to research this for me. Is it possible, since the swordsmith is obscure and not found in lists of smiths for this era that the sword is older/newer? The opinion went straight to "this is a WW2 era sword" even without knowing the smith. I'm assuming it has something to do with the blade itself (and I'm not disputing, just asking for clarification). I have read that really old swords are more like a tachi, with a deep curve.... I was the first to state WWII, the biggest "tell" to this is the Nakago. The older the blade; the more dark chocolate to almost black the patina gets. I could tell immediately upon photos that your sword was WWII era. Other factors like overall shape (Sugata) help date a blade as well. Koto blades usually are thinner and more elegant sweep. Not necessarily solely sori but it is a proportion relative to the Shinogi, and Ji together along with sori and overall thickness. Most WWII blades follow the more showato shapes we see in many production katana today.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 28, 2020 3:38:47 GMT
Like Verity said, nakago patina is the fastest indicator of age. Yours barely has any patina at all, so it's still pretty young.
Brand-new blades will be shiny with crisp file marks. Really old blades will be petty well black and smooth, minus any pitting. Nakago aren't oiled, and are even encouraged to rust.
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Post by Verity on Aug 28, 2020 4:19:00 GMT
Just as an educational exercise and a clear example, let's take your blade's Nakago: Now... note while there is newer redder rust the Nakago steel can be seen underneath with actually quite little patina and even the original file marks are visible. Now let's look at one of my nihonto (1504 AD): See how much darker chocolate the Nakago is throughout? That is an easy way to determine if a blade is OLD vs newer. Now, of course it being tricks of kantei, one thing to remember is it is ALSO always the rule of exceptions. For every "rule" there is an exception: in this case, sometimes Nakago are cleaned (they should not be but sometimes are) and this can trip you up as well. This can sometimes make an older blade look younger so again, overall hallmarks of the blade always have to be considered as well. Fun exercise, now knowing the above... where might you put THIS blade? (Clearly not as young as yours and newer than 1504):
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Post by nebulatech on Aug 28, 2020 6:01:14 GMT
I'm going to guess late Edo, 1840's on. Part of my logic is the munemachi (?) is smaller, and in my limited experience, I have seen that in photos of Edo period blades.
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Post by Verity on Aug 28, 2020 6:16:48 GMT
I'm going to guess late Edo, 1840's on. Part of my logic is the munemachi (?) is smaller, and in my limited experience, I have seen that in photos of Edo period blades. Not bad. I don't actually know with certainty (ask me again after Monday), however I also suspect Shinshinto period. For similar reasons you state. performing these types of exercises are the best way to train your eye. Study known examples and understand WHY they are what they are, the eBay junk becomes much less alluring at that point. Aoijapan often does these appraisal quizzes with the answer the next day. They can help you develop the eye for these things. EDIT: by no means am I calling YOUR blade junk. Forgive me if that is how it sounded. It is more to do with trying to steer you away from eBay blades as study material.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 28, 2020 13:40:39 GMT
I think it said in the Japanese dealer Meirin Sangyos site that I linked earlier that there are not known examples by this smith after WW2 period. Still a very unknown smith whose life is a mystery. There are some really well known and researched WW2 smiths on the opposite end.
As was explained earlier the lack of patination on tang is an indicator that sword is most likely quite recent. Or if it is indeed older piece with tang patination removed, lot of the value is destroyed in the process. Also the short length is a good indicator too in combination with fresh looking tang. Your sword seems to be c. 64,5 cm and the linked one is c. 67 cm. Often modern swords made for martial arts use (after WWII) are longer than that.
I do agree with Verity that swords should not be considered as an investment in my mind either. However I do think the finances come into play when you think what you will want to achieve with collecting as most of us have limited resources. Will you want to put money into restoring a lower end sword to its former glory or will you want to put that money towards a different sword for your enjoyment?
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Aug 28, 2020 16:56:36 GMT
I hope to be an active member. That being the case, welcome.
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Post by pellius on Aug 29, 2020 3:03:44 GMT
Welcome aboard.
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Post by nebulatech on Aug 29, 2020 18:21:41 GMT
Thanks for the kind words of welcome!
Just following up, I still really want to restore this sword myself. I can see the hamon on some parts, and I'm interested to see what it looks like without the rust. That said, I don't (yet) have the skill to do it properly, and I know this. I also already have my hands full with other projects, the biggest being a 40+ year old 25 foot pocket trawler in my back yard (full restoration). I've oiled the blade, not the nagako, and I'm going to keep it in Shirasaya for a while and do nothing with it except periodically oiling it.
There appears to be quite a stigma against individuals doing their own polishing on antique Nihonto, and with good reason. This stigma is not applied to people who own modern swords. I've seen videos of some real butcher jobs by people using water stones, yet it's totally OK for them to do it because it is their (modern) sword. Owning antiques (which I do) is more like being a steward rather than the permanent owner. You're passing a piece of history forward. You have obligations to the history of the antique, the artisan who crafted it and its previous and future stewards. I also own several old "things" like furniture and tools, which I feel like I wholly own. Being old alone doesn't make something a valuable antique. I feel like the blade I purchased falls somewhere in the middle. As has been said, a quality Gendaito in good condition can be had for under $2000 easily.
The machine made gunto I own has historic value, but not that much, and I don't consider it a valuable antique. It was a wreck when I bought it. It was enjoyable to restore it. The signed blade I shared in this thread is closer to a valuable antique. Would I spend money to have it professionally polished? I'm undecided, for a couple of reasons. It's not just the money. I would have to get on a waiting list, wait my time, and then I will be taking up valuable time from a togishi who would likely otherwise be putting their time into a more important piece. How historically valuable is this sword? I mean, it was in shirasaya (and I found that there is writing on both sides, so I'll have to share that as well). I kind of wish I knew the blade is not historically significant because I think I would enjoy restoring it and making new koshirea. There is a responsibility as a craftsman as well, to learn new skills, to truly master them, to always improve. I am wrestling between my desires as a craftsman and my responsibility as a steward. So again, I'm undecided and for now, that's how things will stay for a while.
I spent a good deal of time on David Hofhine's website. He does a good job of dissuading people from trying to learn to polish swords. I don't aspire to achieve his level, nor would I consider trying to polish a valuable antique sword myself. I realize I don't know enough about Nihonto to take on polishing my sword. There is a lot of basic info to learn before one could do a decent job of preserving the geometry and accuracy of a blade. Perhaps I will pick up a tanto to work on, one which has already had its value destroyed (hagire, butchered polish, etc) and use that blade along with the gunto I own to hone my skills. If nothing less, I will have a better appreciation for the skill and a better understanding of whether I can pull off shitaji togi on a real blade.
Thank you again for all of the wonderful advice and education. I'm still learning, and I am still listening to you all. It's thanks to you that this blade is still sitting in shirasaya right now. Again, I know the pain of ignoring the experts and the indignity of being ignored as an expert.
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Post by Verity on Aug 29, 2020 19:04:34 GMT
I concur on the Tanto project.
IF you want to learn how to be a functional amateur uncertified togishi (I consider myself one)...
I see two main paths (and Have done both):
1.) find a true wreck of a nihonto (These can be had VERY cheap) that has either some REALLY bad fukure or hagire or or. Find something literally a certified togishi refuses to touch because it just is loathesome. You KNOW at this point you are not violating the stewardship to work on this blade and who knows, Maybe it will turn into something you enjoy. And if nothing else you are working on your skill. I have JUST such a blade in my Personal queue right now.
2.) start with a production sword that has bad geometry (like.. $80 munetoshi or something off amazon... and work over the polish and try to put a proper kissaki into it... this way you are practicing the process but on a modern sword. Note this method will NOT teach you how to do the finishing polish to bring out hada, but it CAN teach you foundational polish work and also some stuff to bring out the hamon it you get a cheap DH Blade. This is the method I used when I first started tinkering with polishing.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 29, 2020 19:33:43 GMT
In general I don't want to bring up negative things about people. However I must note that David Hofhine is NOT traditionally trained Japanese sword polisher. People much more knowledge than myself have noted negative features in his polishes and it will be good to read some stuff going back years as some of the info is even out for public reading. I don't want to spread second hand knowledge or negativity nor am I really not fit to judge polishes or polishers too harshly. David has most likely done some studying in Japan with polishers as he has been on it for 30+ years but I would suggest caution in general.
Please share the other side of shirasaya as well. On the pictures your shirasaya indeed has katakana, which random posted on previous page. I must say katakana on shirasaya seem to be incredibly rare (not sure about WWII items as I don't really look at them but having modern wartime items 1900- in shirasaya would be bit rare I guess). I have looked somewhere in tens of thousands of shirasaya online and can't recall seeing katakana before on top of my head.
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Post by Verity on Aug 29, 2020 23:11:59 GMT
I think with ANY vendor you get good and bad.
No, to my knowledge David is not NBTHK certified (Tatsuhiko Konno IS).
I've never seen personal issues with David's work. But Konno-San is my main go-to due to being both certified AND the fact he's a mere 25 min from me.
:)
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Post by Robert in California on Aug 30, 2020 6:40:13 GMT
Or if you do not value the blade excessively, buy laquered, rice-paper backed hazuya stones, get some washing soda (a little in water makes the water less likely to rust the steel), and use fingerstones...which is like sawing thru a log with a hacksaw blade. You will spend a long time but less likely to change the blade geometry.
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Post by nebulatech on Aug 30, 2020 20:29:29 GMT
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 30, 2020 22:59:46 GMT
Seems like a name.
チアールズ ゴードン シェリー > give or take > Charles Gordon Shelly?
Don't recognize the kanji at the end, though I feel like I should...
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