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Post by nebulatech on Aug 26, 2020 16:43:43 GMT
Greetings all!
This is my first post. Like many, I've lurked on and off for years. I don't have much to contribute, and I believe in finding exisiting answers rather than create duplicate threads. So I registered a couple of days ago because I have a question that I can't find consensus on. Thank you in advance for reading and taking your time to lend your expertise. Here is my situation:
I bought a katana in shirasaya for not too much money, taking a gamble. It has a signature or at least some carvings on it. There is writing on the shirasaya as well. (I will probably seek help interpreting in the future, but it's kind of a fun idea to me to figure it out myself first.) There is only carving on the right side (blade facing forward). Nothing on the left side. It is my understanding that traditionally the smith's name is on the left and the right side may contain a date or inspirational saying. Of course, nothing stops a sword's owner from writing whatever they want on either side. (I know the right and left side have names, but I can't remember them.)
The blade is heavily rusted, but it appears to be superficial. I can see a decent polish underneath it, and a hamon. I think I should remove this rust chemically instead of using abrasives, not even polish like Mothers, so I can keep the polish as decent as possible. I have the understanding that I should not use acid like lemon juice or vinegar because it penetrates the porous blade and can do damage beneath the surface of the metal. Since I don't know the value of this blade, I want to approach it carefully. I'm OK with it not being very valuable, but if it is, I don't want to mess it up. I've used Corrosion-X in the past on tools and electronics. I don't honestly know, but Corrosion-X also might just be an acid.
I also own a low quality end-of-war gunto, possibly made overseas, and of little value. I've done a near-full polish on it, and I learned a lot from that experience. I don't want to decide what to do with this new blade (polish myself, higher an expert, make new koshirea) until I know more about its value.
Considering the above info, I humbly submit the following two questions:
1.) What is the best approach for removing the superficial rust on the blade?
2.) What are thoughts on the authenticity of this blade and signature? (OK, that's two questions really, total of three)
I will try to get some quality pictures later today.
Thank you in advance to everyone for your consideration.
Kind regards,
Jason
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 26, 2020 16:50:58 GMT
As we encounter often with threads like this, it's very hard to say anything without seeing pictures first.
If the sword may be of value, particularly if it's antique, it's generally advised to not touch it yourself and let a trained professional assess the damage and repair it accordingly.
For right now, wipe the blade down a few times with an oily rag and see how much comes off. If nothing else, the oil should keep it from getting worse.
As for right and left, well, katana are usually described by front or back, or omote and ura, respectively. "Omote" is the "front" or "outside" of the sword, as displayed and worn, with the tsuka on the observer's left. "Ura" is the "back" or "inside" as seen with the tsuka to the right.
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Post by Verity on Aug 26, 2020 17:00:48 GMT
First. There are a handful of smiths that signed on the opposite side (tachi-Mei) I have to look up again to remember who exactly as the most common names escape me at this moment.
If you think the blade may even REMOTELY be saved and of value, do NOT attempt to polish this yourself or use ANY chemicals.
Get it evaluated by an experienced togishi. Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT do this yourself. Don't clean the Nakago even if there is active rust. Slather oil on it to make an air barrier and interrupt any further rust but do NOT try to remove it yourself under any circumstances until evaluated properly. You can permanently ruin an antique piece of history and otherwise wreck a salvageable blade.
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Post by Verity on Aug 26, 2020 17:07:40 GMT
Additively, MANY Hizen school blades were signed tachi Mei. So even blade unseen there could be a good chance it is Hizen school just by that considering odds; not definitive of course but a good chance it may be.
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Post by nebulatech on Aug 26, 2020 17:24:13 GMT
Wow, thank you randomnobody and Verity for the speedy preliminary responses. I know what I want to do, but I truly respect your advice so I'm just going to do nothing atm. (I know first-hand that giving an expert opinion only to be ignored is off-putting for the advisor and worse, ill-fated for the recipient!)
My original plan was to get some of the rust off and get a closer look at the blade with a jeweler's loop to look for hagire, then try to interpret the writing. If the blade has a hagire, I'm of the understanding that it is greatly diminished in value, and of zero value as a weapon. I'm not saying I want to take this new blade and go chopping with it. My thoughts were if it has a hagire, it's probably not worth investing in to restore it or even have it evaluated.
It sounds like I should try to decipher the writing and post some high quality pictures to see how likely it is that this blade is valuable. Would a rubbing of the tang be helpful? I don't mind taking a gamble with a few hundred bucks, but I'm a bit reluctant to send off my new acquisition to someone who I don't know. Hopefully, this community can point me to some trustworthy people. I'm in South Carolina, in the USA.
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Post by Lord Newport on Aug 26, 2020 17:32:31 GMT
Dont do anything until you get photos of the mei, post here and elsewhere, and determine its origins/value. Anything else would be a fools errand.
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Post by Verity on Aug 26, 2020 17:32:34 GMT
Wow, thank you randomnobody and Verity for the speedy preliminary responses. I know what I want to do, but I truly respect your advice so I'm just going to do nothing atm. (I know first-hand that giving an expert opinion only to be ignored is off-putting for the advisor and worse, ill-fated for the recipient!) My original plan was to get some of the rust off and get a closer look at the blade with a jeweler's loop to look for hagire, then try to interpret the writing. If the blade has a hagire, I'm of the understanding that it is greatly diminished in value, and of zero value as a weapon. I'm not saying I want to take this new blade and go chopping with it. My thoughts were if it has a hagire, it's probably not worth investing in to restore it or even have it evaluated. It sounds like I should try to decipher the writing and post some high quality pictures to see how likely it is that this blade is valuable. Would a rubbing of the tang be helpful? I don't mind taking a gamble with a few hundred bucks, but I'm a bit reluctant to send off my new acquisition to someone who I don't know. Hopefully, this community can point me to some trustworthy people. I'm in South Carolina, in the USA. Cost to have it evaluated and a window polished in is about $100 by a togishi. They would likely find any hagire during that evaluation. Just get some photos and that alone will help us possibly identify it with an opinion and whether it may be worth the effort. Get good photos of the full shape, the Nakago, hamon and boshi if visible as well as any other features you can see. Yakidashi if visible also may be helpful (the beginning of the hamon at the tang/Nakago)
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Post by nebulatech on Aug 26, 2020 17:37:15 GMT
I will do this in the next few hours. And thanks Lord Newport also.
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Post by Verity on Aug 26, 2020 17:50:56 GMT
I will do this in the next few hours. And thanks Lord Newport also. I don't know any togishi in SC, but I suggest contacting David Hofhine or Tatsuhiko Konno for certified US based Togishi (I am very lucky to live very close to Konno-san which makes these efforts much easier for me. Stephen and Konno are extremely friendly and knowledgeable; I can attest to them.) David is also extremely capable. David Hofhine: www.ipolishswords.com/Tatsuhiko Konno: japaneseartswords.com/(May not be for you, but I personally would never trust anyone other than these two in the US with MY nihonto)
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Post by nebulatech on Aug 26, 2020 19:23:29 GMT
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Post by Verity on Aug 26, 2020 19:58:55 GMT
Looks newer. WWII possibly.
Not a cheap gunto but rather a traditionally made post Meiji blade.
Last character of the signature is Saku with a long downstroke but not an Emura which is a hallmark of his Saku kanji.
Working on the rest of the translation.
My guess is WWII era. Good shape. Need to research WWII smiths.
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Post by Jussi Ekholm on Aug 26, 2020 20:22:41 GMT
It is by very obscure WWII era smith. I think tackling the signature will be a fun quest. You'll find at least one reference work with same signature.
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Post by Verity on Aug 26, 2020 20:32:04 GMT
It is by very obscure WWII era smith. I think tackling the signature will be a fun quest. :) You'll find at least one reference work with same signature. Oh I was hoping you were gonna weigh in as well, Jussi. :)
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 26, 2020 20:35:56 GMT
Those characters on the saya are katakana. I'm not sure I'm reading them right, but I'm getting イチカツ イチクシロク ニッポン which I can't really make any sense out of, but the "2" you reference is the "ni" in "Nippon" or Japanese for Japan.
Leave the rest to Jussi and Co
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Post by nebulatech on Aug 26, 2020 20:40:22 GMT
Thank you Jussi and Verity!
I'm assuming Jussi knows who the smith is, and is keeping it secret so I can enjoy the hunt for myself?
I just put down my Japanese 101 textbook from college, 20+ years old now! I majored in Spanish, with only the intro class for Japanese. This is going to be harder than I thought, but it will be fun. I thought the characters on the shirasaya were hiragana or katakana, but it looks like they might be kanji as well.
So based on the signature not being famous, it's probably not gimei. If it is WWII, it's not that old, and not worth several thousand to have it restored, am I right?
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Post by phoule on Aug 26, 2020 20:50:24 GMT
I think this is a Showa era blade made by an unknown smith. Signed 出雲住雲秀作 Izumo ju Kumohide saku.
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Post by paulmuaddib on Aug 26, 2020 20:51:25 GMT
Sorry for the interruption, but can anyone explain why I’m getting a thin strip on the right side of my screen for the pictures? I’m on an iPhone. It’s happened a few times in the past. Thanks in advance.
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Post by randomnobody on Aug 26, 2020 20:53:00 GMT
A few things play into that, really. For starters, just because it's WW2 era doesn't mean it's not potentially a sufficiently valuable piece to warrant restoration. Just pretty likely.
Cost of restoration will depend on who does it and how much they need to do.
Then there's the personal side: do you want it cleaned up? Is it worth it to you?
I have two antique wakizashi that I'd love to have polished but their values aren't really "worthwhile" in the collector/reselling point of view, but because they're mine and I intend to keep them I would like them to be in good condition.
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Post by Verity on Aug 26, 2020 21:01:24 GMT
I think this is a Showa era blade made by an unknown smith. Signed 出雲住雲秀作 Izumo ju Kumohide saku. Man you are quick. I had gotten the ju, hide and Saku and that was it so far haha
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Post by nebulatech on Aug 27, 2020 0:15:02 GMT
Thank you everyone for your guidance and translation!
I hope to be an active member.
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