Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 19, 2020 15:42:56 GMT
I have a variety of interesting bits lying about, and it occurred to me that I could make a completely anachronistic dagger with a fancy-ish Migration Era sword-like hilt.
Material Assets:
I have the final 16.5 inches (41.91 cm) of a Hanwei-Tinker longsword (the unfullered pointy end)
I don't have a bunch of garnets lying around, but I do have some chunks of lapis lazuli.
A single mild steel plate - 6 inch x 12 inch x 1/8 inch (15.24cm x 30.48cm x 0.3175cm)
A single mild steel plate - 3.346 inch x 3.94 inch x 0.59 inch (8.5cm x 10cm x 1.5cm)
A single brass rod - 0.39 inch diameter x 12 inch long (1cm diameter x 30.48cm long)
A piece of brass round stock - 1.5 inch diameter x 2 inch long (3.81cm diameter x 5.08cm long)
A piece of copper flat stock - 4 inches x 1.5 inches x 0.12 inch (10.16cm x 3.81cm x 3mm)
A single 110 Copper Sheet, Unpolished - 12 inch x 12 inch x 0.021 inch (30.48cm x 30.48cm x 0.533mm)
The final 17 inches / 43.18cm of an American hickory axe handle
I also have an assortment of scrap pieces of poplar (from sword handles and scabbards), and an assortment of thin (and quite flexible) limewood/basswood plywood scraps
I also have a number of scrap pieces of adult cattle tooling leather, rawhide
An assortment of nails, rivets, wood glues, hide, glue, epoxies, and cordage.
From these humble scraps, I endeavor to make as cool looking a hilt as I can, while drawing direct inspiration from the Migration Era Northern European sword hilts.
As always, please tell me how idiotic and/or awesome my plan is.
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 19, 2020 16:03:09 GMT
My first thoughts:
I am not using part of the hickory axe handle as the dagger handle. The hickory they use in these commercial axe handles is too much of a pain to work with, and I have poplar available (which is a joy to carve up).
Since these Migration Era hilts tend to have organic bits, I am definitely thinking that the axe handle is better suited to that kind of role (especially stained).
If I currently had access to one of the metal lathes, I would cut a pair of ferrules out of the chunk of brass round stock, but quarantine is messing that up. I'm at a loss for what to do with the brass bits.
I could cut out four pieces of the mild steel plate, and raise a rim on them (for texture, or whatever). They can serve as the bread on these sandwiches.
I could cut four similar pieces of the copper flat stock, to act like decorative inner washers.
I can make a hickory washer, potentially stained and decoratively carved, for the centerpiece of the guard and pommel.
The brass rod is fairly malleable, I could possible use it in place of the mild steel rivets I have.
I would like to have some sort of pommel cap I can set some lapis in, but so far nothing is coming to mind.
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Post by libra on Aug 19, 2020 17:32:53 GMT
Sorry, dude. But this sounds absolutely idiotic... not doing this! Any chance to see a little sketch?
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 19, 2020 19:10:43 GMT
Sorry, dude. But this sounds absolutely idiotic... not doing this! Any chance to see a little sketch? Do you care to elaborate? I would like to know why think it is stupid at a conceptual level? Why do you think hilts similar to these on a dagger are "absolutely idiotic?"
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Post by paulmuaddib on Aug 19, 2020 19:24:12 GMT
Damn Libra that’s kinda harsh. Zen I always enjoy your projects /exploratory concepts. Don’t know much (really anything) about Viking swords, so glad you posted the pics. Idea about your cap. Don’t know how high/tall it has to be but could you stack the copper pieces and shape them how you want. Not sure how you would glue them together though. Epoxy might work. An it’s soft enough to make divots to glue your lapis pieces into. Just spitballing an idea with what material you have on hand.
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Scott
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Post by Scott on Aug 20, 2020 1:03:01 GMT
I think Libra meant not doing it would be idiotic. Sounds like a great plan.
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Post by libra on Aug 20, 2020 4:09:56 GMT
Yes, Scott is right. It was meant as a funny kind of motivation to make this project come true, of course. Sounds really cool!
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 20, 2020 16:03:20 GMT
Sorry, I derped. I'm usually a bit better on the uptake than that. I'll sketch it up as soon as I have the opportunity. I'm not sure how the "pommel caps" are traditionally affixed to the washer/plate they rest on. I could always just anneal a bit of the "tang" and peen it on (which feels like cheating). I could have the cap be two halves sandwiching the "tang" and use epoxy and pins/rivets to stick it together, but that also feels like cheating, and a mess to pull off. I may need to scrounge the scrap bins of one our machine shops at work to see if I can find a bit more brass or copper to work with.
The assembly I'm envisioning is scaled down a bit from sword hilt size, but still proportionately the same. I'm undecided on the grip shape yet. You typically see the spindle, the hourglass, and the Roman spatha finger groove thing with this type of sword hilt, but this being a dagger... I love the way Migration Era sword hilts look, but they rarely look comfortable to me. I'm thinking of going with a less exaggerated spindle or hourglass shape. Something that is recognizable for its inspiration, but not to dainty or awkward in my ham hands. I would love to make some cool ferrules and a decorative ring in the center of the handle, but lacking a metal casting setup, that would be a lot of work.
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,619
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 21, 2020 12:13:53 GMT
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on Aug 21, 2020 13:07:25 GMT
I think this is a GREAT idea! But... Let me add to your list. Have you planned for an oath ring on the hilt? Might be cool...
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 21, 2020 13:19:37 GMT
I think this is a GREAT idea! But... Let me add to your list. Have you planned for an oath ring on the hilt? Might be cool... It has certainly crossed my mind, and any job worth doing, is worth making substantially more difficult for the sake of bragging rights to people I've never actually met face-to-face. *heavily distorted guitar squeal* I'll have to see what worthy ring making materials I have left over from my little symposium at Celebrimbor's workshop.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2020 13:25:44 GMT
I love projects like this! I can't wait to see where you go with it.
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Post by libra on Aug 21, 2020 13:35:12 GMT
Wow, I'm sure the color contrast of the single parts will look great!
I'm not sure, if I understand you correctly / it may be helpful to you, but I found two pictures where it is shown how the pommel cap is rivited to the "rest of the hilt" (as it is described there). It's done with T-rivets in that case, pretty interesting. I have zero experience with migration era weapons, to be honest. But I'll follow your project quite interested.
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 21, 2020 13:45:48 GMT
I really don't have any intention of using the handle I've been working on for this dagger project. I just found it in a drawer this morning as I was getting ready for work (as one does), and it kind of cried out to me to molest it. So it ended up in the photos.
I really need something like a quality antique infantry sword blade lacking a hilt to pair it with.
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Zen_Hydra
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Born with a heart full of neutrality
Posts: 2,619
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Aug 21, 2020 13:59:54 GMT
Wow, I'm sure the color contrast of the single parts will look great!
I'm not sure, if I understand you correctly / it may be helpful to you, but I found two pictures where it is shown how the pommel cap is rivited to the "rest of the hilt" (as it is described there). It's done with T-rivets in that case, pretty interesting. I have zero experience with migration era weapons, to be honest. But I'll follow your project quite interested.
I'm familiar with how those later Viking age multi-part pommels were pinned together. What's less clear to me is how it's done with the multiple and varied layers of the Migration Era hilts. In particular, I am unsure how the arched/pyramidal finial bit is attached to the plate beneath it. Does it have smaller pins/rivets which don't penetrate as far? Are the finial and the plate beneath it all part of some metal casting which is then finished/shaped by hand? As I mentioned previously, I could take the easy way out and use it a decorative peen block, but I don't think that's how it traditionally went together. Also, of some concern to me is how the more delicate material layers in the guard and pommel deal with the stresses of being riveted together.
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Post by MOK on Aug 22, 2020 1:02:09 GMT
Here's a good photo of a Migration Era hilt with its organic components almost completely rotted away that gives quite a good view of how it's put together.
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Post by ThomasW on Aug 22, 2020 15:18:29 GMT
This looks like a great idea :)!
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Post by paulmuaddib on Aug 22, 2020 21:34:27 GMT
Yes, Scott is right. It was meant as a funny kind of motivation to make this project come true, of course. Sounds really cool! Sorry libra, it went completely over my head also. Guess there has just been a lot of negativity on here lately and I jumped to the wrong conclusion.
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