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Post by tinker60 on Aug 14, 2020 15:04:46 GMT
Greetings from Australia! And thanks to all you fine Gentlemen (and Ladies? Don’t recall seeing any names resembling female, but God forbid I FUBAR my first post by not being politically correct…) for explaining the difference between swords, their construction and handling, and helping me clarify what I wanted. A great wealth of information here, more importantly imparted absent flame-wars. Respect…
I’ve wanted a real sword since I can remember. The only experience I’d had with anything resembling a sword was a “singing” sword I made out of spring steel with a cross guard of brass hex stock flared at the ends, then cut in the middle, notched and brazed onto the (angle-ground) shaped (1mm rounded edges) steel, with leather hot-glued and wrapped around the handle, which was designed specifically to ring like a bell to draw a crowd to our street performance group at Woodford Folk Festival. Because the guard had to be placed at a certain proportion of the blade for maximum ring-age, it had a long handle so I got used to using two hands and that’s what I wanted for my first real sword. Plus two-handed swords are more intimidating – better to scare them off than fight them off I reckon. And, they just look cool…
After weeks of obsessive ultimately fruitless research which ended in a spreadsheet and starting again coz I couldn't remember anything from information overload I finally decided on a Hanwei Tinker Bastard with fuller. War Swords had one without a fuller and I figured 4 oz couldn’t make THAT much difference (…) The sword felt pretty ok, although to a 5’7” 140lb fit but untrained greenhorn, a little club-like one-handed. Would I be correct in guessing the option of using a hand-and-a-half sword one-handed is limited to swinging rather than elegant parries and ripostes?
While I was there of course I tried every sword that caught my eye (including a second hand Hanwei Rapier which felt SO nimble but would be hopeless for slashing err cutting), and James had my second preference from my spreadsheet – a Hanwei Paul Chen Late Medieval Knights Bastard. And while it was considerably bigger in every way than the Tinker Bastard, and obviously heavier, I seemed to be able to wiggle the tip easier. Go figure. Maybe the antiqued bigger blade gave me a testosterone rush…
Then James showed me how to determine the PoH by holding the grip near the guard, hitting the pommel and finding where the blade didn’t wobble (I know you know, but the explanation is for any other noobs who will inevitably find their way here), and when we determined the Late Knight Bastard’s PoH was nearly 5” closer to the opponent, and the tip nearly 8” closer than the Paul Chen Bastard, I was sold. And it was fifty bucks cheaper! In the process of watching the wobble to determine PoH, James commented that he thought the Late Knight Bastard didn’t have enough distal taper. But in the blinding lust of a VERY cool looking new long sharp stick, I didn’t care, didn’t ask, and took my lifelong yearning fulfilment home to play.
First thing I did after swinging it around a few times of course was bend it to see if it would break or take a set (it didn’t). But I noticed it didn’t bend in the same shape as all the other swords I’d seen being bent online. THEY looked like a French curve, very little bend near the guard, gradually increasing towards the tip in an elegant arc. Mine looked like a stick with a rainbow on the end… And James’ words about distal taper came rushing back.
So out came the marker and Verniers. After triple checking every measurement, here are the results:-
At the guard/ricasso – 5.5mm
6cm – 5.4mm (first full-depth part of the fuller)
10cm – 5.3mm
20cm – 5.2mm
30cm – 5.35mm (! quadruple checked this one)
40cm – 5.0mm
50cm – 4.6mm
60cm – 4.6mm
70cm – 4.5mm
74.5cm – 5mm (end of fuller/start of diamond cross-section)
80cm – 4.9mm
90cm – 4.6mm
93cm – 4.6mm
99cm – 0mm – tip
So from 5.5mm at the ricasso, to 74.5cm of it’s 99cm, it’s still 5.0mm, and at 93cm, only 6cm from the tip, it’s still 4.6mm.
So I took my new rainbow stick to the creek to beat up on some unsuspecting 1” pine saplings. I figured that after seeing well made swords being destruction tested hitting metal poles and concrete blocks which hardly marked the swords, some flexible saplings shouldn’t push my new good reputation Hanwei too hard. Here I discovered that unless I hit PERFECTLY aligned, the tip tried to wrap itself around the tree, then the sword wobbled like a pool noodle for a few seconds (ok slight exaggeration on both counts). Is this normal? It didn’t feel right… (although my forehand strike which severed the poor triffid’s top half felt GREAT 😊)
From what I can gather it seems most sword tips range somewhere from 2mm to 3 or 4mm for a cut and thrust. So I’m figuring my 4.6mm bludgeon at the tip might be a tad heavy?
Is this the way it’s supposed to be or am I letting numbers and poor technique spoil a perfectly good sword?
Cheers
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pgandy
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Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Aug 14, 2020 16:51:44 GMT
Welcome to the forum and your new toy. Swords were not intended to cut trees and a rule of thumb is not to cut anything the sword can’t cut through. Fortunately you choose a good one and the spring metal [tempering] worked, at least this time, or you would have put a set in the blade or broken it depending. Take would you see on YouTube with a grain of salt.
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Post by MOK on Aug 14, 2020 17:38:31 GMT
Welcome to the forum! Would I be correct in guessing the option of using a hand-and-a-half sword one-handed is limited to swinging rather than elegant parries and ripostes? Well, it depends - some swords are better in one hand, some in two, some strike a neutral balance. Both of the ones you tried are definitely two-handers first and foremost, though. Yeah, that's normal when you fail to get the edge alignment right. If the edge hits at an angle, the blade can't cut, and most of the power in the strike goes into an unintended attempt to wrap the blade around whatever you hit, instead. There's always some wobbling even from a successful cut, but that's why you should aim to strike with the forward vibrational node (i.e. that point on the blade that doesn't wobble) in order to avoid wasting too much energy on that. Stiffer swords tend to be more forgiving about it, but they also tend to be thicker which can hinder cutting, and can be more prone to bending permanently instead of just flexing; everything is always a compromise in sword design. Maybe, maybe not. Again, it depends! Some blades taper a lot, like from 6mm or 8mm at the shoulders to 2mm before the point, which tends to be the case with dedicated cutting blades; some taper barely at all, and these tend to be purpose-built for thrusting because maintaining thickness throughout their length maximizes their stiffness - but on the other hand, stiffness helps with cutting, as well. Some blades with strong profile taper don't need to taper much in thickness to still feel very dynamic (though a little bit is still usually needed for structural purposes, to regulate the way they flex and avoid undue stress on the hilt components); some have little taper in either dimension in order to generate more percussive force. Probably. If a sword works well (when used properly) it's good. At least in a functional sense, that is. Most of us have other priorities as well, like particular aesthetics, historical authenticity or specific methods of use - or a certain price range! - that the sword must also jibe with in order to be good for that particular person.
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Post by Tomt24 on Aug 14, 2020 18:36:48 GMT
Distal taper on historical swords most of the time isn't as extreme as some might expect at first. Swords with a lot of profile taper like the XV, have not that much distal taper. And as MOK mentioned, need to be stiff throughout to deliver a thrust. Pictures from Peter Johnsson
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Scott
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Posts: 1,675
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Post by Scott on Aug 15, 2020 2:18:01 GMT
Welcome to the forum! Personally I wouldn't worry about the stats, so long as you're happy with it.
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Post by tinker60 on Aug 15, 2020 3:52:26 GMT
Thanks for your prompt and informative replies. How do I include more than one quote in replies please? I've searched in vain, so my apologies if this is in the Help section or has been covered in another post...
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Post by MOK on Aug 15, 2020 8:53:49 GMT
Thanks for your prompt and informative replies. How do I include more than one quote in replies please? I've searched in vain, so my apologies if this is in the Help section or has been covered in another post... Oh, that's something I figured out only recently, myself! For the longest time I'd been just clicking Quote on each post and manually copy-pasting them all into the same reply. Click on the cog icon in the top right corner of each post you want to quote and choose "Select Post", then scroll to the bottom of the page and click on the "Reply" link atop the Quick Reply box.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Bavarianbarbarian - Semper Semprini
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Aug 15, 2020 9:00:57 GMT
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Post by gwynbleid on Sept 17, 2020 1:55:09 GMT
Is this the way it’s supposed to be or am I letting numbers and poor technique spoil a perfectly good sword? Cheers I recently bought the hanwei tinker longsword sharp, and though I've been studying longsword techniques at home, I am still very new to proper form and getting that edge alignment just right. That being said, You DEFINITELY are letting numbers, and more likely poor technique spoil it. Just like everything else in life, it usually takes goos practice and experience to do something the right way. Keep at it. You'll get there.
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Post by tinker60 on Jan 18, 2022 22:15:11 GMT
So after joining a club and using their feders, then buying one, my sword felt like an axe by comparison. It was then I realised what the word "knight" meant in sword design ie mainly for swinging from horseback where weight and a forward PoB would be advantageous.
Given I'm unlikely to ever have to fight from horseback, and the fact that the 39 ¼" blade was WAY too long to wear or remove or put back in the scabbard easily with my diminutive height (169cm), I decided to make my 'axe' like my feder (and I fixed the grip) – link
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