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Post by denzetzu on Aug 2, 2020 17:19:30 GMT
Hello! I asked questions recently about cutting bottles and such. But today I am wonder about sharpening. I have a 1060 that is decently sharp from when i bought it. Except the bottom of the edge for some reason. I did accidentally hit it into a hard surface, saw that it got a bit of a "flat" surface in the edge which I managed to smooth out. Rrr anyway. My real question is. I can't get it sharper. I have only tried 3M emery paper on it at the bottom, and while it look as if it should be sharp, it isn't really. It won't cut the nail of my thumb, which the rest of the sword does. God I am so bad att summaries and explaining.. Tl;dr i can't get my katana sharper with emery paper even though I follow www.sword-buyers-guide.com/sharpen-swords.html and do it at 30 degrees and so on. Also have a whetstone, not a super fancy one tho but also doesn't seem to help. Tried the entire procedure on an old wall hanger and can't get that sharp even if I do file, whetstone and sandpaper/emery paper... Thanks in advance.
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Post by Lancelot Chan on Aug 2, 2020 17:38:19 GMT
because 30 degrees are very obtuse. :P
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Post by denzetzu on Aug 2, 2020 18:20:43 GMT
because 30 degrees are very obtuse. Should i go at a lower angle then? I havent been that rough when i use the emery paper. It is 400 in grit, since I am afraid to semprini up. But should i maybe just go to town with it at a lower angle at it will be sharper perhaps?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 2, 2020 18:25:54 GMT
There are several techniques that will work so don’t feel locked in to one. Some work best with a particular type blade and then there is personal preference. Everyone seems to have a favourite. I read the method that you are referring to and can’t agree that and a katana go together as that will give a secondary bevel, which most people will not buy, some of course will accept it. I do like the author’s statement of removing the metal from the sides and the edge will take care of itself. And to finish a katana with 400 grit paper I find too course for finishing and too fine in the initial use. You might scan YouTube and this forum for ideas. One tool I found helpful is a magnifying glass. Use this in sun light. I found the artificial lighting in my house deceptive, to examine the edge when you think you have finished and you maybe surprised. For a katana I find it best to strip it of its furnish and work with the blade only. Use wet/dry paper with a light oil, WD-40 works well, and even better with a slightly compressible backing. While your katana may appear to have a flat surface you will find that it isn’t. Just to touch up a dulled undamaged blade I’d start with #220 grit and oil, don’t forget the oil. Forget that 30° angle in the instructions. It’s too great of an angle and will give you a secondary bevel. Instead lay the blade on the paper allowing it to seek its own angle from the original polish the manufacturer put on it. Initially I’d push/pull the blade towards its edge first on the paper until it will cut paper. At that point go to the next finer paper but this time change the direction by a few degrees. Do this will distinguish this polish from the one you just put on. Do this until all the scratch marks from the first paper are hidden at which time chose the next finer paper and repeat again changing direction from what you just did. The original direction will be good. Keep doing this until the blade is sufficiently sharp for your liking. At this time possibly drawing the blade along its long axis for the final polish. I usually stop at 600 grit but have gone to 1500. You might want to strop it a few times after finishing. In that case I’d do so at some small angle, 20°? Don’t feel that you have to finish in one setting. Work until you are tired, oil the blade and set it aside for another time. Do be careful of your fingers. In the final stages I wear gloves, I learned the hard way. You should be able to shave with it when complete.
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Ouroboros
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Post by Ouroboros on Aug 2, 2020 18:31:14 GMT
Sharpening a wallhanger is a lot like ... well, hubris. Most arent heat treated or are an alloy that renders them... difficcult, if not impossible for them to.hold an edge. For sharpening you will need the right tools for the job (emery cloth might not be enough, depends on the grade, the grit and the grit size). Sandpaper is a good place to start but you might need specific paper like that used in autobody repair (shhh, thats my secret, along with the guides you will find here)
Ive found purchasing a few different stones, a strop and a good hone can often make the difference between having a jagged blade that will cut (more like cleave or rip) and something that will slice cleanly.
Keep practicing!! Good Luck Ouro
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Post by denzetzu on Aug 2, 2020 19:47:59 GMT
Sharpening a wallhanger is a lot like ... well, hubris. Most arent heat treated or are an alloy that renders them... difficcult, if not impossible for them to.hold an edge. For sharpening you will need the right tools for the job (emery cloth might not be enough, depends on the grade, the grit and the grit size). Sandpaper is a good place to start but you might need specific paper like that used in autobody repair (shhh, thats my secret, along with the guides you will find here) Ive found purchasing a few different stones, a strop and a good hone can often make the difference between having a jagged blade that will cut (more like cleave or rip) and something that will slice cleanly. Keep practicing!! Good Luck Ouro ALright! Will buy a bit more tools then. I think I have some super basic. And the oil I use is just a sort of WD-40. one small and stupid question, could I get my already kinda sharp blade, sharper, by just using my hand, a piece of emery and some WD? I've seen people that can cut swords but just holding a paper and pressing just slightly, and I guess that is what I should aim for?
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Ouroboros
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Post by Ouroboros on Aug 2, 2020 20:19:52 GMT
I would aim for having some 3 in 1 machine oil (any light oil will do but wd40 is a little thin and be careful of getting oil on leather or cloth, stains may result)....try getting various grades of wet/dry paper 400, 600, 800 1000, 2000 etc and a fine grit ceramic hone at minimum. Stropping should be left for when youve learned to sharpen and hone. Learning to sharpen is a skill we should all have. Ive had good times using a mouspad with the sandpaper on that. Put the mousepad on a table and then move the sword across the sandpaper (different theories tell of moving thw blade diagonally, some drawing the blade down the improvised whetstone, others prefer a diagonal motion. Professional polisher im not... Some work in small sections and progress the lengrh of the blade this way. Repeat with higher grit and repeat with higher grit . Idealy, you want to move the blade of the sword gently, letting the weight of the blade do the work of pressing into the mousepad and sand paper. Using a mousepad you will have a little more of a rounder profile to the blade (more Niku). Hopefully you dont develop a secondary bevel (pushing too hard against the mousepad can cause this) but keep the original shape of the blade by following the factory sharpening.
Once youve achieved a good edge(one that will shave a bit of thumbnail or at least catch in the nail), honing or stropping the edge can get it to the point where paper can be sliced very easily, hair can be shaves, almost without effort. Sharpening is an art as well as a science. Concentrating on the exact angle may lead you to skip over 'feeling' how the weapon wants you to sharpen it...
Last trick i use is to gently and carefully polish the very edge of the blade with some 1/2 inch circles of high grit (5000) paper and polish the blade qs if rhose ciexles were fingerstones. The smoother and more well polished the edge, the better the cut.
BE CAREFUL with this last part. Ive opened up fingers and didnt realize it for a few secons afterwards. But those cuts can be deep and take while ro heal.
To answer the " getting it sharper question ", a hone or strop can get a blade ro hair splitting sharpness.
A bit long winded but i hope this helps...i take a more artistic approach to sharpening honing and stropping a blade but with practice and patience you will get there!!
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Post by denzetzu on Aug 2, 2020 20:40:58 GMT
I would aim for having some 3 in 1 machine oil (any light oil will do but wd40 is a little thin and be careful of getting oil on leather or cloth, stains may result)....try getting various grades of wet/dry paper 400, 600, 800 1000, 2000 etc and a fine grit ceramic hone at minimum. Stropping should be left for when youve learned to sharpen and hone. Learning to sharpen is a skill we should all have. Ive had good times using a mouspad with the sandpaper on that. Put the mousepad on a table and then move the sword across the sandpaper (different theories tell of moving thw blade diagonally, some drawing the blade down the improvised whetstone, others prefer a diagonal motion. Professional polisher im not... Some work in small sections and progress the lengrh of the blade this way. Repeat with higher grit and repeat with higher grit . Idealy, you want to move the blade of the sword gently, letting the weight of the blade do the work of pressing into the mousepad and sand paper. Using a mousepad you will have a little more of a rounder profile to the blade (more Niku). Hopefully you dont develop a secondary bevel (pushing too hard against the mousepad can cause this) but keep the original shape of the blade by following the factory sharpening. Once youve achieved a good edge(one that will shave a bit of thumbnail or at least catch in the nail), honing or stropping the edge can get it to the point where paper can be sliced very easily, hair can be shaves, almost without effort. Sharpening is an art as well as a science. Concentrating on the exact angle may lead you to skip over 'feeling' how the weapon wants you to sharpen it... Last trick i use is to gently and carefully polish the very edge of the blade with some 1/2 inch circles of high grit (5000) paper and polish the blade qs if rhose ciexles were fingerstones. The smoother and more well polished the edge, the better the cut. BE CAREFUL with this last part. Ive opened up fingers and didnt realize it for a few secons afterwards. But those cuts can be deep and take while ro heal. To answer the " getting it sharper question ", a hone or strop can get a blade ro hair splitting sharpness. A bit long winded but i hope this helps...i take a more artistic approach to sharpening honing and stropping a blade but with practice and patience you will get there!!Thank you so much for elaborating! It does currently catch my nail, except the bottom of the blade, so I guess I'll try to use paper for that and hopefully it will make it, well, almost as sharp as you mentioned stropping can!
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Post by denzetzu on Aug 2, 2020 21:13:32 GMT
I tried to say thanks but that.. isn't there.. Thanks Ouroboros and everyone!
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Ouroboros
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Post by Ouroboros on Aug 2, 2020 21:36:20 GMT
I tried to say thanks but that.. isn't there.. Thanks Ouroboros and everyone! Anytime we've gor a crew of amazing people here to help with many many aspects o the hobby I dont think Facebook offers the same interaction as the forum. Very glad to meet you btw!
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 3, 2020 12:47:39 GMT
Sword sharpening is definitely something that takes a lot of practice to get right. All of the techniques mentioned will work just fine. I have found that more important than technique is in how you approach the job. Don't try to "sharpen"the blade, try to "reveal the edge". Go with what the sword wants to do, not with what you impose on it yourself.
The 30 degree edge will work in some cases, in others it won't. Some swords have an "apple seed" edge that don't have a defined bevel that can be measured, they more or less "roll" across to form the cutting edge.
Practice makes perfect. There isn't any easy way of doing it. So get a cheap sword and start practicing. Time and experience will show you the right way.
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Post by denzetzu on Aug 3, 2020 13:24:04 GMT
Might as well ask here again.. Am I using the wrong sort of emery? shop.nsg.se/1251/sm%C3%A4rgelpapper-3mThe translations are kinda wonky to Swedish but just tried to find from 3M so eh. Maybe this cant get it sharp.. Doea seem to polish and remove the hamon tho!
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Post by denzetzu on Aug 3, 2020 14:12:15 GMT
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 3, 2020 14:43:20 GMT
I can’t see, as you said the site requires a log in. But I’m guessing they are smaller square sheets of assorted emery paper that should work. I use wet/dry paper as called in the US and is the same that an auto body worker would use to repair an car. In my country it is known as sandpaper for metal and the sheets are about 8½” x 11”. I walk about 50 mts to the corner hardware store and buy several of each from 220 to 600, but keep 100 and 1200-1500 on hand. I tear the sheets into strips about 3” x 11” and place over my mouse pad hit once with WD-40, reoiling when necessary. You might want to keep some paper towels handy.
Yes, expect to lose the hamon. However, this can be replaced the term is acid etching and several instructions can be found on the forum.
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Post by denzetzu on Aug 3, 2020 14:58:50 GMT
I can’t see, as you said the site requires a log in. But I’m guessing they are smaller square sheets of assorted emery paper that should work. I use wet/dry paper as called in the US and is the same that an auto body worker would use to repair an car. In my country it is known as sandpaper for metal and the sheets are about 8½” x 11”. I walk about 50 mts to the corner hardware store and buy several of each from 220 to 600, but keep 100 and 1200-1500 on hand. I tear the sheets into strips about 3” x 11” and place over my mouse pad hit once with WD-40, reoiling when necessary. You might want to keep some paper towels handy. Yes, expect to lose the hamon. However, this can be replaced the term is acid etching and several instructions can be found on the forum. imgur.com/a/a1RSaaA. Maybe can view this? I bought the emery papers from some jewellery tool website so might be too soft? But that was all I could find when it comes to emery and not sandpaper.
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Ouroboros
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Post by Ouroboros on Aug 3, 2020 15:11:58 GMT
I can’t see, as you said the site requires a log in. But I’m guessing they are smaller square sheets of assorted emery paper that should work. I use wet/dry paper as called in the US and is the same that an auto body worker would use to repair an car. In my country it is known as sandpaper for metal and the sheets are about 8½” x 11”. I walk about 50 mts to the corner hardware store and buy several of each from 220 to 600, but keep 100 and 1200-1500 on hand. I tear the sheets into strips about 3” x 11” and place over my mouse pad hit once with WD-40, reoiling when necessary. You might want to keep some paper towels handy. Yes, expect to lose the hamon. However, this can be replaced the term is acid etching and several instructions can be found on the forum. Master pgandy is wise. Autobody/metal wet/dry paper is really the best papeer to use. What you are removing is the visible acid etch of the hamon. Usually made frostier by the production factory. You can use a mix of warm lemon juice, a few drops of dish soap and some rags to apply a homemade etching solution that will bring out the hamon again. You might even find more structure to the hamon lurking beneth the factory etch. There are several tutorials we can point you towards for this. Jewellery sandpapers/emery cloth will work but it should be the wet/dry kind (i have both in my shop and though dry-only jewellery paper will work you will end up using 3 or 4 times what youd use with wet/dry as the grit particles will start to come off the paper with the oil. I tool a look at the pics and it looks like similar paper to what i use on silver. It might just take a bit longer but stick with it. Good Luck! Ouro
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 3, 2020 15:46:32 GMT
Imgur doesn’t work for me on my computers at times and this is one of them. However I did finally make contact with the site you originally posted. The 210mm x 280mm is roughly 8½” x 11”, close enough. The coarsest, 400 is too fine for the initial sharpening and 8000 is finer than necessary when finishing. While 3M is good there are other manufacturers that will work. I rarely use 3M as it is not always available to me. You should be able to pick some wet/dry paper up, not necessary 3M, at your local hardware store or automobile supply store. Then there is always a body repair shop.
Sharpening is more of an art than anything. It takes practice, much practice and some never get it. I like Rufus's input, especially “Go with what the sword wants to do, not with what you impose on it yourself.” And I hinted at this when I said lay the blade on the paper and let it seek its own level. Forget the 30° angle being correct because someone put it in writing and you saw it. Rufus put it better. Sharpening takes practice but a skill well worth learning. There is more than one type of edge and so far I've only addressed on for a katana.
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Post by denzetzu on Aug 3, 2020 15:46:36 GMT
I can’t see, as you said the site requires a log in. But I’m guessing they are smaller square sheets of assorted emery paper that should work. I use wet/dry paper as called in the US and is the same that an auto body worker would use to repair an car. In my country it is known as sandpaper for metal and the sheets are about 8½” x 11”. I walk about 50 mts to the corner hardware store and buy several of each from 220 to 600, but keep 100 and 1200-1500 on hand. I tear the sheets into strips about 3” x 11” and place over my mouse pad hit once with WD-40, reoiling when necessary. You might want to keep some paper towels handy. Yes, expect to lose the hamon. However, this can be replaced the term is acid etching and several instructions can be found on the forum. Masters pgandy and RufusScorpius are wise. Autobody/metal wet/dry paper is really the best papeer to use. What you are removing is the visible acid etch of the hamon. Usually made frostier by the production factory. You can use a mix of warm lemon juice, a few drops of dish soap and some rags to apply a homemade etching solution that will bring out the hamon again. You might even find more structure to the hamon lurking beneth the factory etch. There are several tutorials we can point you towards for this. Jewellery sandpapers/emery cloth will work but it should be the wet/dry kind (i have both in my shop and though dry-only jewellery paper will work you will end up using 3 or 4 times what youd use with wet/dry as the grit particles will start to come off the paper with the oil. I tool a look at the pics and it looks like similar paper to what i use on silver. It might just take a bit longer but stick with it. Good Luck! Ouro I'll keep at it with them then! It feels a bit sharper than before, but still very dull compared to the rest of the sword. One more question though if you don't mind.. How long is it supposed to take? I've done about.. 500 movements back and forth on each side + like 5 minutes each side as well. I don't mind it if it takes like 2 hours, but nice to know if it is super obvious I'm doing it wrong because it takes so long or if that is just normal
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Aug 3, 2020 16:12:23 GMT
How long is it supposed to take? I've done about.. 500 movements back and forth on each side + like 5 minutes each side as well. I don't mind it if it takes like 2 hours, but nice to know if it is super obvious I'm doing it wrong because it takes so long or if that is just normal Haha. 🤣🤣I can best answer that by comparing it to a length of string. How long to paint a picture? With practice you’ll be able to make some rough prediction. How dull is it? How sharp do you want it? How hard is the metal? How long is the blade? What is your skill level? Etc. If you can do it in 2 hrs three cheers for you. Forget the time, at least at first, and concentrate on the edge. If it takes more than one setting then come back after you have rested. For me I have to be in the right frame of mind and just to set down and get it done is never my best work and in fact at that point it’s best not to do it. In an emergency, say with a machete or other working blade that is needed at the time OK, then come back later if need be. I find sharpening not a mechanical thing but something that have to feel and go with my instincts. To say that I have 50 strokes so now it’s time to go to a finer paper is not the best approach.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Aug 3, 2020 16:58:57 GMT
.... How long is it supposed to take? .... The best answer I can give is "yes". Professional Japanese sword sharpeners/polishers can take weeks to months to do one sword properly. To dress an already sharp edge takes the time from the start of the job to the completion, and to put an edge on a dull sword takes that same amount of time plus the same again because it always takes twice as long as you think it will. Pgandy mentioned machetes- I have difficulty sharpening machetes because of the length of the blades and my lack of practice. People who live in central America can sharpen one in a few minutes, but then again they have been doing it since they were little kids and it's second nature. It also depends on if you are just giving it a quick hit with the stone to keep the edge keen while using it vs. sharpening a completely dull blade. The same with a sword- only swords have much harder and more complex edge geometries. Honestly, it takes as long as it takes. Don't worry about the time- it's the least important thing.
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