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Post by aldarith on Jul 18, 2020 22:12:11 GMT
So I received a KOA giftcard for my upcoming birthday and have been looking around for a gladius to use it on. Deepeeka producs are some of the only ones in my budget range, so I am wondering if anyone wants to weigh in on which swords they like. Some that I was interested in were out of stock, and I am not sure how soon they will be re-stocked. I'm interested in hearing which you would pick, but I want to know your why as well. The Fulham, my personal favorite. Fulham Gladius - AH2010The pompeii Pompeii Gladius - AH4211CThe other Pompeii Pompeii Gladius - AH4211Bor The Mainz-Wederath Gladius Mainz-Wederath Gladius - AH3311E
as an aside, what is Deepeeka's Caesar gladius based on? Is it complete fantasy? Caesar Gladius with Bone Grip - AH4228
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Post by aldarith on Jul 18, 2020 22:15:38 GMT
By the by, if you have any off-list suggestions I am open to hearing them.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 18, 2020 22:25:49 GMT
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Post by aldarith on Jul 18, 2020 22:42:04 GMT
Andi,
I'm very interested in that one but the price with sharpening gets up to $200 AND it's out of stock.
If somehow they restock I might spring though...
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 18, 2020 22:54:46 GMT
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Post by aldarith on Jul 18, 2020 23:24:19 GMT
We did speak of your Gladius - it's on the list for the future!
If it comes back in stock over the next couple days I will be sorely tempted.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 18, 2020 23:45:51 GMT
From the four in the poll I like the Pompeii best (not the other). Best shape over all for me. I don't like the flat pommel of #1
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 18, 2020 23:56:30 GMT
Ok, your Fulham next to the Tiberius Mainz looks rather like a Fulham than the one on the KoA picture.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 19, 2020 0:29:33 GMT
The grip and guard are historical. Spiral-grooved bone grips are common enough. They're typically barrel-shaped like this, but this one is more tapered towards the ends than usual (but some historical examples had this much taper). I don't recall seeing a flat rectangular pommel. Lots of nice pictures of gladius parts at: www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Attack.htmlrme.mcbishop.co.uk/the-figures
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 19, 2020 0:57:09 GMT
To me the Caesar's looks like a spatha with wrong profile taper. Would make sense, C. as a proconsul probably didn't fight in a testudo but on horse.
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Scott
Member
Posts: 1,675
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Post by Scott on Jul 19, 2020 5:06:07 GMT
I'd go with the Fulham. It's the prettiest, specifically the blade shape and the pommel.
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Post by aldarith on Jul 19, 2020 12:49:43 GMT
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Post by aldarith on Jul 19, 2020 12:56:54 GMT
From the four in the poll I like the Pompeii best (not the other). Best shape over all for me. I don't like the flat pommel of #1 I do like the ridge and proportions, and the ridge is easily rounded out to be more in keeping with the examples above. I like that the interpretation is within the realm of possibility and based at least partially on a find, too. If it restocks I might cave and buy that one. RufusScorpius and I have discussed his (and I have read the review) and I am sorely tempted to wait despite the possible delays.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 19, 2020 13:02:57 GMT
From the four in the poll I like the Pompeii best (not the other). Best shape over all for me. I don't like the flat pommel of #1 I do like the ridge and proportions, and the ridge is easily rounded out to be more in keeping with the examples above. I like that the interpretation is within the realm of possibility and based at least partially on a find, too. If it restocks I might cave and buy that one. RufusScorpius and I have discussed his (and I have read the review) and I am sorely tempted to wait despite the possible delays. Call KOA on the telephone and talk to them about the fullham. They may be able to put your name on a waiting list and contact you as soon as they get one in stock. I have found that business is easier and smoother when you have human to human relationships. If it were me, I knowing what I do now, I would wait or advance order the fullham. You won't be disappointed
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pgandy
Moderator
Senior Forumite
Posts: 10,296
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Post by pgandy on Jul 19, 2020 13:54:15 GMT
It's not a Deepeeka but the DoD on a Windlass. www.museumreplicas.com/gladius-maintz-pattern With the promo code it is $143.96 plus shipping and at the moment is in stock. Also it has 15 reviews giving it an average of 4½ stars.
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Post by aldarith on Jul 19, 2020 14:00:02 GMT
It's not a Deepeeka but the DoD on a Windlass. www.museumreplicas.com/gladius-maintz-pattern With the promo code it is $143.96 plus shipping and at the moment is in stock. Also it has 15 reviews giving it an average of 4½ stars. Thank you for pointing that out! I am looking to avoid the Windlass, however, for a few reasons. The blade shape, the materials and the (perhaps misplaced) sense of sadness I feel when I behold it. Joking aside, I investigated the Windlass offering some time back and the blade shape and grip material are deal-breakers for me. The reviews are positive, though and we know it would be good for backyard cutting!
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Post by aldarith on Jul 19, 2020 14:04:09 GMT
By the way, Brother Nate, thank you for sharing these. I hadn't seen the backside of the Tiberius yet! On the pommel of you Tiberius - is that a crack or split I see that has been repaired?
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Post by Mark Millman on Jul 19, 2020 17:09:09 GMT
Dear aldarith, This comes late, but for what it's worth, here are my comments:
Of the four you mention, the AH4211B Pompeii Gladius is the one most likely to pass unnoticed if you were to time-travel to the first-century Roman Empire. As I'm very interested in minimizing historical inaccuracy, this would be my pick. Like you, I like the AH2010 Fulham on aesthetic grounds, but the blade doesn't seem to be very Fulham-style in shape according to KoA's photos; it doesn't flare toward the shoulders, making it look like a somewhat long-pointed Pompeii blade. To be fair this could be an artifact of the photography, but I've looked pretty closely and I don't think so. And it's in a Pompeii-style scabbard--which in principle isn't impossible for an old sword that needed a new scabbard, but it's unusual at the very least in the archaeological record. Also, the guard plate is laid on the guard rather than inset, which again is possible but unusual. Finally, the AH2010's hilt is actually based--not particularly closely--on the ivory hilt shown in the second hilt photo that you posted above. That find, I think, is believed to be from a spatha and not from a Fulham. Albion used similarly ridged but blockier shapes on their first-generation Fulham gladius, and modified them slightly for their Tiberius Gladius, the guard and pommel shapes of which the AH2010 largely copies. The AH3311E Mainz-Wederath has a blade that's very similar to the one on the Fulham above--that parallel-edged, moderately long-pointed, not-quite-typically-Fulham shape. Other than that, it looks pretty OK. The guard may be a bit on the wide side, but I don't think it's extreme (unless the whole hilt is huge--see below). The AH4211C Pompeii has an oddly-shaped and very oversized pommel that makes me think more of a Mainz than a Pompeii pommel. (The pommel on the B is biggish for a Pompeii, but not gigantic, and is a good shape for a Pompeii pommel.) And the AH4211C has a Mainz- or Fulham-style scabbard. This is rather less likely than having an older sword in a newer scabbard (it's true that there's overlap, but the basic chronology isn't disputed), particularly if the old scabbard wasn't highly decorated; and I don't know of any archaeological examples. In fact the whole thing, now that I think about it, kind of looks like a Mainz or, more likely, Fulham gladius that somehow got refitted with a Pompeii blade and guard. This doesn't seem very probable. I think that the AH4211CK 1st Century Roman Pompeii Sword is the best of Deepeeka's Pompeii gladii, but I'd prefer a bone grip to the wooden one it has (as I'm sure you know, the wooden grip isn't wrong; I just prefer bone grips, both for their contrast with wooden pommels and guards (a bit of a re-enactorism, I know, even with historically likely light-colored woods) and for their feel in hand); and it may be out of your price range--although I may be wrong about that, as you're considering the AH2007 Fulham Gladius, which is almost the same price. Note, however, that I have found the hilts of Deepeeka's gladii are sometimes much bigger in reality than they look in photos. Judging by the grip-length measurements and the overall proportions these should be OK, but if you have small hands the hilt may be on the large side for you. I don't know what the guard and pommel of the AH4228 Caesar Gladius with Bone Grip are based on, but it's my understanding that few wooden hilts from Republican-era gladii hispanienses (which this is) survive--not that they didn't have wooden hilts, but that where the context has suggested one, it's often the case that very little or none of the material remained. I do know that several spirally-grooved bone grips survive, so the grip at least is appropriate to the blade, as Timo remarks above; and based on his comments, the guard apparently is too. But I think that the more decorated scabbard on the AH4229 Caesar Sword with Wood Hilt better represents the finds than the scabbard on the AH4228. Incidentally, I've owned a copy of the AH4229 and the grip is enormous, suitable perhaps for a professional basketball player but not for me. Given the choices in your original list I figured you prefer narrower straight blades, but honestly I'm not sure the AH2007 Fulham Gladius would have occurred to me even if I hadn't made that incorrect guess. The AH4204 Titus Vespasianus Gladius also never really came into my consideration because of the unusual--but attested--pommel; that sword is a Pompeii style with an equally elaborate and correct scabbard--the same one, in fact, that comes with the AH4211CK. Let me add that I think Deepeeka's gladii, as long as they stick to the archaeological record--and Deepeeka's Primus line, from which many if not most of their more recent gladii come, is pretty good about that--are the best non-custom ones available, in the sense that their being largely hand-made in a manual-labor factory means that they have a lot of the same kind of variation between examples and lack of complete regularity to each example that's typical of pre-modern large-scale production, and that the traditions of the Indian craftspeople who make these probably mean that they use a lot of the same techniques that the Romans did, or similar ones that give a very similar result. Obviously Albions, for example, are far more perfectly made in terms of fit and finish, but historically that just wouldn't have happened because the Romans (and medieval people, and Renaissance people, and so on and so forth) didn't have our machine-age expectations of perfect regularity and symmetry, and extremely tight manufacturing tolerances. But I expect you know all this already, and I'm preaching to the choir. I hope this proves helpful. Best, Mark Millman
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Post by aldarith on Jul 19, 2020 18:05:45 GMT
I contacted Gagan of Deepeeka directly and asked about the heat treat they do. He is a designer for sure as I have seen him in the Roman Army Talk forums asking for input on designs. He may perhaps be the owner, but this is unclear. He said to me that ALL blades are available heat treated but that some customers and businesses want wallhangers and a low price so they offer these at a discount. I think this is how Deepeeka got the stigma it now has and I became very interested in investigating whether or not it's a deserved reputation - the people who have good things to say always seem to OWN a deepeeka and those who target them do not. Next I contacted Ryan of Kult of Athena who confirmed that A N Y T H I N G on Kult of Athena with a "Battle-Ready" icon has been heat treated and that they take great care to make sure any un-treated swords do not receive that status, so I am thoroughly sure that all the people claiming (elsewhere) that Deepeeka products and not heat-treated are either parroting or have not actually been able to access a heat-treated model. I share your opinion on variation - it only adds to the personality of the swords! I've been to see some of the more famous examples (such as the Cluny sword in Paris) and the tolerances on old blades and fittings are certainly different from ours All-in-all, I am becoming more and more inclined to hold out and buy the 'premium' fulham with the red scabbard and baldric while simultaneously wanting to get my gladius in the mail and just order the AH2010 for swiftness' sake. Of the wood hilt on the AH4211CK - the contrast is very nice between the bone and wood & I also like that contrast, so I too prefer the gladii that have the natual bone grip. Despite the amount of animal products we consume today, you just don't see bone used as in fabrication like you might have.
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Post by Timo Nieminen on Jul 19, 2020 20:59:40 GMT
I do know that several spirally-grooved bone grips survive, so the grip at least is appropriate to the blade, as Timo remarks above; and based on his comments, the guard apparently is too. Give or take some uncertainty due to the condition of surviving guards. (Which might be bone rather than wood, since I only saw drawings). Incidentally, I've owned a copy of the AH4229 and the grip is enormous, suitable perhaps for a professional basketball player but not for me. I'd avoid it due to the grip length.
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