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Post by poppaninja on Jul 13, 2020 8:21:23 GMT
drive.google.com/folderview?id=1PRV3X_BSlE9Esuv7f1PonKwvHVhHw5zCThis sword is about 53 inches total and the handle is about 16 inches long. When it's screwed together tightly to be honest it seems totally solid and I have taken it to and old tree stump with no problems. The blade and handle is a lot better quality than i had expected and it is very light and ridgid carbon spring steel but holds an edge well and honestly it is just too fun not to play with. I have other swords of similar size but this one handles very differently and i like the balance for slashing compared to my heavier later century style two handers. There are no markings or country of origin but it's definitely a few decades old. The brass fittings with crush washer fit just right and hold the blade in a way that seems to transfer the force to the entire handle (its ash or something very hard and light). None of my other swords have welded tangs but i am not against the idea of hidden tangs in general. In some ways it seems by design that the weld is directly inside of the brass fitting rather than halfway through the handle, which would logically seem better. But maybe it was just because that was the extent of the blank. There is a maybe 10 inch ricasso which gives me a lot to work with, but it is not quite long enough to use only the blade material for the tang and keep the same handle. How deep should the weld be to be "good enough"? Or is the weld inside the solid brass fitting enough to protect it from bending in theory? I know usually people might say half way, but is that still true for a 16 inch handle? I guess my options are to leave it as is, and if it breaks I will turn it into a peened longsword, or to try and save the handle and cut into the ricasso. Would 3-5 inches be enough, or do i need to go half way? I'm not going to be doing anything too serious with it, but I like my sharp swords (it came that way) to be somewhat functional as well. I'd appreciate any thoughts on this.
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Post by MOK on Jul 13, 2020 10:25:30 GMT
Welcome to the forum! What we have here is a classic affordable sword approximation from the early '90s or so, I dare wager. A welded tang isn't a bad thing in and of itself, but dang that's a really small and shallow weld - and a really thin rod that's welded on to such a large blade! Ideally, you'd want the welded-on extension to be of roughly the same dimensions as the integral part of the tang and to follow roughly the same lines; this is way too small, with many sharp angles that create focal points for whatever stresses the tang is subjected to, and it'll be vulnerable to bending in the plane of the blade (i.e. the direction of the most significant stress in use) in a way that a flat tang wouldn't be. The brass guard does seem to fit fairly snugly which should support the join somewhat, but given the small contact area and rough job I seriously wouldn't want to count on that being nearly enough. Basically, it'll work fine until it fails, and then the blade will go flying in a random direction... unless the rod simply bends enough to crack the grip, first. How deep is "good enough"? All the way through the tang. The proper way is to bevel the edges so you can reach in and weld the pieces together from the inside out and turn them into one piece of metal. And you build up the weld over the surface, too, enough so that you can then grind it back down flat without leaving big pits and furrows like here.
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Post by poppaninja on Jul 13, 2020 12:28:25 GMT
Thanks for the warm welcome and the detailed response. It's good to be in the company of other weapons enthusiasts. I agree with your assessment of 90s, no later than 70s.
The steel is actually pretty nice for light cutting blade, as a blank it could make an awesome one or hand and a half broadsword from the ricasso. The problem is that the handle is too awesome. I think the sword would snap long before the wood will. And in order to do that I will still need at least 3 or 4 inches of rod or i will be cutting into the blade itself. Is it giving me much of a benefit it i still end up half-assing the last few inches? Is it possible they did this out of design due to the way the fittings seem to make it work? The balance is nice for a cutting blade, its very fun in it's current state.
It's not like most cheap swords I saw like this in the 90s at least in the sense that the brass fittings are legit and the whole thing could be drilled and peened or pinned into a very legit sword by cutting the wood shorter. Yes it would loose length but it would be a very practical sword that today would sell for a lot more than one with a bar like this.
In a less close up shot you can see the other side of the weld where it is completely flat. It's really only a very small gap in the weld and looks worse in the photo due to flash and weathering in the crack but I decided to leave it at it's worse.
I tried my best to crack it out of the handle and it just bends the same as the rest of the sword and seems similar strength to the rest of the bar. It's about 3/8 and possibly a higher carbon steel. I tested the sword pretty roughly and it seems fine. Im aware that there are some (usually) cheap south asian swords made like this that can out last their westernized fuller tang cousins due to flexibility, not sure if that usually appliess to welded ones.
I guess my question is if this was yours and you liked it, would you leave it as is. Would you cut the whole bar off and half the handle and peen it with the brass pommel, if so what size grip? It can fit four hands on it as is maybe five. Or would you simply move the weld further into the handle, and if so how far?
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 13, 2020 12:28:48 GMT
Hang that thing on the wall and admire it. The tang should be at least ¼” dia. Judging from the photos by the time you drilled the guard out and bored the grip to take it those parts would then be excessively weakened. That round grip makes edge alignment more difficult. Just my 2¢. Welcome to the forum.
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Post by poppaninja on Jul 13, 2020 12:59:36 GMT
I believe the thread is about 3/8. I have a set of thread gauges I will pull out and check when I have time. I have much nicer swords to play with, it's just really fun and hard to resist being so big and light.
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Post by poppaninja on Jul 13, 2020 13:29:47 GMT
I also think that i could get a 3/4 or bigger inch tang through the handle and pin it to the pommel with very little drilling. There is plenty of wood there to flatten it as well, it's a very hard wood. I am looking for personal opinions so no harm in saying it's junk. I didn't pay much for it but it's a lot nicer than I assumed from the auction pictures.
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Post by MOK on Jul 13, 2020 13:56:55 GMT
This thread shows one example of a modern welded tang done right. (Most of the historical examples, which can be found from all over Eurasia, are done with forge welded scarf joints, sometimes with the end of the softer steel or iron tang sandwiched around the end of the harder steel blade.) Now, personally I would say the grip seems oversize for that blade to the point of getting in the way, but if it works for you, it works. I'd cut off the rod, cut a longer slot in the end of the blade, and weld in a somewhat shorter piece of flat stock (or thicker threaded rod if you want the convenience) with more care and using the sort of deep Y-joint shown in the thread I linked above. And then I'd make a new grip, shorter to match the new tang and flatter in cross-section to help control edge alignment, with a few risers to give a bit more tactile feedback... Or, perhaps more likely, I might not bother! It's quite a lot of work for what this is. I'd probably just keep it as a nostalgic wallhanger. It's a real blast from the past when I first got into swords, and bears just enough resemblance to swords in a few games and movies I have fond memories of to be worth keeping just as a decorative thing.
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Post by poppaninja on Jul 13, 2020 15:29:12 GMT
Thanks for linking that thread, I doubt that i would have found that on my own. I am a fan of miaodao and I like the grip, it's kind of like that. But i might change it a bit from the advice here. I think I will give it a shot for the experience if nothing else. When I get around to it I will try to update the thread. Really appreciate it.
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Post by poppaninja on Jul 13, 2020 15:54:27 GMT
The only thing i don't have is a welder. But it seems that brazing rods can melt at 1250, which I think should be safe for the steel as long as i keep it below 1400. Tensile strength is 85,000 psi so it should be fine. What kind of steel do you recommend for the extension? Can I get a blank from home depot or should I order something more fitting?
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 13, 2020 18:16:34 GMT
Something tells me that modifying the tang is not the best of ideas. I personally wouldn't try. There are far to many technical challenges with the project: everything from they type of steel used in the tang to the loss of temper from the welding and the re-hardening of the metal. Plus some other problems associated with changing the weight and therefore the balance. I think the sword is best used for collection purposes, not for actual use. But that is my opinion, it's your sword and you can do anything you please with it.
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Post by poppaninja on Jul 13, 2020 19:22:40 GMT
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_2000_01_s24.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjS-cOU9MrqAhWrnOAKHaQLD2EQFjALegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw3jzaQmi7XbuFLcZh6s_TLgCheck this out. So here is my crazy idea based on this. Now I realize I'm being a little extra here. Someone tell me why it will not work. Wrap the tang in a steel mesh and twist it in place with wire. Then i will braze the whole surface with the steel multi-metal brazing rods, and grind it down to a nice smooth curve to reduce possibly of stress fractures. According to the paper up there this is the best way to join it to the base metal. I think some shops use carbon fiber to reinforce. It can be done at 1200 which should be before the steel changes much. Since it's inside the hilt I dont have to worry about coming in contact with the alloy regularly. I know its not going to win me a "best sword" award or anything, but i dont see why it wouldn't work. It seems that some makers braze their hilt and pommel, even though its kind of overkill desu.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 13, 2020 20:23:34 GMT
Part of the fun in this hobby is experimentation. If it interests you, then do it and let us know the results.
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