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Post by tsmspace on Jul 4, 2020 0:01:28 GMT
I have a balaur arms blade (actually 2 of them,,, one is a 2nds quality 12th century en45 steel, , the other is a bare blade new version so 5160 steel (are they the same?? they look the same) , I haven't sharpened the 5160, but I think it will be an equal to the 12th century for sharpness. I just finished my first hilting attempt, and am waiting for the glue to dry. (I used liquid nails to glue the handle on,,, it's got an iron cross-guard and pommel made from cut pieces of barstock, they are both like, loose. I tried to peen the pommel on, but the tang was cut so I should have filed it to more pointy so that the pommel would be held by the peen against a bevel instead of almost perfectly straight tang. Now the handle is the pressure on the pommel, and the crossguard can also come loose from impact,,, oh well first try, no loss to try again)
I'm really not feeling it with the edge retention,, it only gets so sharp and then any more than that it won't stay on through the first cut. It's really hard for me to cut with it.
ok so I don't want to try to heat the blade, although I do have a torch, instead I wonder if I hammer it like they do to the bronze swords,, will it make it able to be sharper ??
I'm pretty sure it's not that hard, and the steel can get harder than it is, it's pretty floppy and springy. but perhaps especially in the top third it would be ok to harden the edge if hammering will do the trick.
anyone ever try something like this??? the 2nds quality was 100$, I'm really not taking much of a risk, the sword cuts like a sheet of paper so although I"m SURE I will later get better with it (I'm not used to such floppy blades), I also won't feel bad if i ruin it completely. (the dang thing is twisted anyway.)
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 4, 2020 0:26:45 GMT
No, it won't get harder or sharper this way, only softer. Floppyness has to do with the blade geometric, nothing else.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 4, 2020 0:32:52 GMT
Yes! You need to use a great big hammer (aka "BFH"), like a 8lb sledge or a railroad hammer and just beat the living bejeezus out of the sword, preferably on an anvil or similar. And I mean whack that sword like it owes you money. I guarantee it will fix your sword for good.
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Post by tsmspace on Jul 4, 2020 0:47:10 GMT
No, it won't get harder or sharper this way, only softer. Floppyness has to do with the blade geometric, nothing else. hey but if it's not all the way hard, then shouldn't it first soften then back harden again>? I mean what's the hardness potential of work hardening shouldn't they be the same??? It's just a molecular structure,,, when you work harden it it DOES get super hot at those microscopic points of deformation. and what about "air quenching" ,,, like what if I just heat it to really hot and let it cool in the air,,, it should cool pretty quickly at the edges.
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Post by tsmspace on Jul 4, 2020 0:47:39 GMT
Yes! You need to use a great big hammer (aka "BFH"), like a 8lb sledge or a railroad hammer and just beat the living bejeezus out of the sword, preferably on an anvil or similar. And I mean whack that sword like it owes you money. I guarantee it will fix your sword for good. hey why does you spell great with an f???
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Ouroboros
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Post by Ouroboros on Jul 4, 2020 1:13:35 GMT
Are you asking if peening the edge of a sword is possible as one might peen the edge of a scythe on a stake anvil? Sure but... I dont think the average production sword would be improved by this process (or survive).
I peen my scythe so that its edge is straight, divots and bends are flattened and the edge is as thin as I need before honing to tackle the job at hand (be that long grass, saplings, hay/straw or crop even light to medium bush). Peening moves some metal around but very little and I'm.not sure tye purpose would by anything but thinning out material. I dont think it will make anything "harder" as in work hardening bronze, copper, silver. Not like a proper heat treat would harden steel at any rate.
If the edge of a sword were thusly treated without consideration to the heat treat and relative thin-ness and resulting "softness" of the material, I would imagine a sword would not survive long against much cutting or get stuck or rendered useless by taking a set...
I'm no swordsmith but I know my scythe and different beast compared to a sword.
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Post by tsmspace on Jul 4, 2020 4:07:13 GMT
Are you asking if peening the edge of a sword is possible as one might peen the edge of a scythe on a stake anvil? Sure but... I dont think the average production sword would be improved by this process (or survive). I peen my scythe so that its edge is straight, divots and bends are flattened and the edge is as thin as I need before honing to tackle the job at hand (be that long grass, saplings, hay/straw or crop even light to medium bush). Peening moves some metal around but very little and I'm.not sure tye purpose would by anything but thinning out material. I dont think it will make anything "harder" as in work hardening bronze, copper, silver. Not like a proper heat treat would harden steel at any rate. If the edge of a sword were thusly treated without consideration to the heat treat and relative thin-ness and resulting "softness" of the material, I would imagine a sword would not survive long against much cutting or get stuck or rendered useless by taking a set... I'm no swordsmith but I know my scythe and different beast compared to a sword. tell me more about your scythe and peening? never heard of that before.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 4, 2020 4:51:56 GMT
Scythes have very thin blades which can get wavy if you hit a stone. Then you peen it straight again so you can sharpen it again. This is not work hardening, just straightening. Your swords should be quenched and tempered. Maybe just relative soft for a heat treated blade. But this still would be harder than anything you can do with work/hammer hardening, you would only soften the blade. If you want to get it harder you have to quench the blade again from a glowing temperature. I don't believe you can do this wirh a torch. You probably would it just temper it to more soft.
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Ouroboros
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Post by Ouroboros on Jul 4, 2020 20:01:40 GMT
Scythes have very thin blades which can get wavy if you hit a stone. Then you peen it straight again so you can sharpen it again. This is not work hardening, just straightening. Your swords should be quenched and tempered. Maybe just relative soft for a heat treated blade. But this still would be harder than anything you can do with work/hammer hardening, you would only soften the blade. If you want to get it harder you have to quench the blade again from a glowing temperature. I don't believe you can do this wirh a torch. You probably would it just temper it to more soft. The Barvarian speaks true. I should have included a picture for clarity. Forgive the lapse Btw, that's a might nice peen ya got there Andi
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pgandy
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Post by pgandy on Jul 4, 2020 20:56:31 GMT
I remember helping my uncle with a scythe cutting the hay. I don’t know how he maintained it. I was too young to care or handle it. I could pick up and transport it for him but that’s about all. I hated the helping job as my part was basically using a pitch fork and shovelling that mess up on a wagon and the hay dust, I’m sure it has a proper name, would separate and fall sticking on my sweaty body and in my eyes. I have known in a pinch scythes to be disassembled and blades mounted making makeshift swords to good effect.
I don't know but imagine that a twisted blade, as you mentioned you have, could be bad for edge retention.
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Post by tsmspace on Jul 4, 2020 22:59:39 GMT
Scythes have very thin blades which can get wavy if you hit a stone. Then you peen it straight again so you can sharpen it again. This is not work hardening, just straightening. Your swords should be quenched and tempered. Maybe just relative soft for a heat treated blade. But this still would be harder than anything you can do with work/hammer hardening, you would only soften the blade. If you want to get it harder you have to quench the blade again from a glowing temperature. I don't believe you can do this wirh a torch. You probably would it just temper it to more soft. so I know that metals are often work hardened by rolling. I don't know how hard that works out to be. Do you know if there are literatures that are easy access easy read (layman stuff) that actually lists work hardening vs tempering hrc and such?? Or is that the kind of information that's buried in paragraphs of textbooks, or that the charts are buried in expensive largely inaccessible publications which are only available with subscriptions to publishers or such. ?? like, if you buy a cold-rolled sheet of steel, exactly how hard is it?? How hard can it potentially get?? NOne of that is assembled such that I have seen it, in some kind of "easy reading" chart for entertainment purposes. In other words, what IS the hrc of a peened scythe? what WOULD be the hrc of a peened en45 sword?? what IS the hrc of a peened bronze sword?? (which IS peened according to the yubtub). ALSO,,, something else. I understand that "hardness" is better for edge retention, but I ALSO know that there is MORE to the "blade" equation. so, it's not just how hard a metal is that determines whether it makes a nice edge. As a result of this, perhaps some of my experience with these springy blades is not that they don't have the HARDNESS to hold an edge, but perhaps that there is another quality I should be worrying about, which MAY be affected positively by peening for some metals DESPITE the softening of the metal ,,,,, (like, maybe it's brittle, so a blade that is more gooey on the edge will actually be more functional as a blade ??)
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howler
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Post by howler on Jul 5, 2020 2:06:24 GMT
All things being equal a harder edge (greater wear resistance) may be more prone to chipping. Unless you're going into blade making I think you are getting a bit too hung up in the weeds on metallurgy. The minimum quality companies (and the steels they use) are known, and you already have some fine examples (or better) like the Sharkalope yourself. If you are interested in something and it has good reviews, material, company reputation, and is at a good price point (for YOU), than that is where I'd focus. Like everyone told ya steer clear of cheap BUDK mall ninja stuff and you're gold.
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Post by tsmspace on Jul 5, 2020 2:45:41 GMT
All things being equal a harder edge (greater wear resistance) may be more prone to chipping. Unless you're going into blade making I think you are getting a bit too hung up in the weeds on metallurgy. The minimum quality companies (and the steels they use) are known, and you already have some fine examples (or better) like the Sharkalope yourself. If you are interested in something and it has good reviews, material, company reputation, and is at a good price point (for YOU), than that is where I'd focus. Like everyone told ya steer clear of cheap BUDK mall ninja stuff and you're gold. well for the information of your ,,, my sharkalope ONLY arrived TODAY (on the 4th of july, no kidding, the mail-person drove all the way up the lane to MY house, and handed it to my while I was in the lawn trying to peen some stainless steel, which didn't seem to have any positive or negative effect, so I've literally only cut ONE bottle with a sharkalope, and I must say, it was a bit of magnificence. The sharkalope is still pretty beefy, overall, but it was such a clean and perfect cut,, the edge quality capability of the zombie tools product is unquestionably premium. It looks, feels, and cuts like a top shelf edge. It's in a category all its own considering my collection. Hands down, I don't have a competitor. I have other swords that can be plenty sharp and cut fully clean (with proper technique), but the sharkalope is a different animal than even a windlass sword. and windlass is on the top end of my blade capability spectrum once you step out of the cheapo budk swords. (interestingly things at budk are just sharper, but do feel like they won't handle the abuse of actual use,,, they feel like disposable blades that work excellent for a short while). once we are talking about "sword collector swords", ,,, I have either swords that bend really easily or swords that simply don't cut very easily no matter how sharp you try to make them,,,, and by now I'm confident enough in my sharpening consistency to place plenty of blame on the metal quality, be it temper or be it ,,,, well it can only really be the temper the steels are all close enough. and then what I'm getting at here, is that although YOU might argue whats the difference just go buy a good one,,, EYE am thinking something else, which is ok, but I have this one right here, just what CAN be done to make it work better?? Is there ANYTHING I can do to better up the edge?? to make it function better??? Technique is an avenue, which I gradually do explore, (and today, like every so often I do feel like I made progress in my understanding of swords and am using swords to greater effect as of presently),,, but there's more to life than technique, (don't agree with that statement?? please reference any discussion of quality for evidence), and it does seem like there should be some THING I can do to my steels that don't make me happy to improve my enjoyment of them , and sharpening is tried already. Hammering, though, is a tiny bit irreversible, and although I can certainly see the value in the experiment, experiments aren't cheap or so easy as "done" just because I sort of thought about it that one time for a minute over twix,,, so I don't see where I can be best served by having the thought, grabbing the sword, and pounding it until it's bumpy ,, unless it works for sure, and then really someone should know about it,,, things are like that. It's not likely I'm going to be the only one who had such an idea,,, in fact,,,,,,,,,I'm pretty sure the question of peening the edge of a sword must be an old question that constantly resurfaces as a result of there being a huge gap in the historical record. anyway,,, so what do you think>?? If I gum up some of the metal right on the edge, would it get a (albeit more soft and fragile) "better" edge??? It should still be ALMOST as hard as the rest of the sword, which should be still pretty hard, it being on the hrc scale at all. I mean plastic does NOT find itself on the hrc scale.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 5, 2020 3:24:36 GMT
Congrats to your ZT beast. Unfortunately I can't find anything to the rate how much harder steel becomes with hammer hardening. But since the discovery of quenching blades are quenched. Also the modern rolling process of steel before forging already has some of those effects. The best you can do to a sword edge outside a forge is reprofiling (thinner or with more meat/niku - just as you think you need it) and sharpening/polishing/stroping the edge. Forget hammer hardening of blades except for bronze swords that can't be quenched.
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howler
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Post by howler on Jul 5, 2020 7:45:54 GMT
All things being equal a harder edge (greater wear resistance) may be more prone to chipping. Unless you're going into blade making I think you are getting a bit too hung up in the weeds on metallurgy. The minimum quality companies (and the steels they use) are known, and you already have some fine examples (or better) like the Sharkalope yourself. If you are interested in something and it has good reviews, material, company reputation, and is at a good price point (for YOU), than that is where I'd focus. Like everyone told ya steer clear of cheap BUDK mall ninja stuff and you're gold. well for the information of your ,,, my sharkalope ONLY arrived TODAY (on the 4th of july, no kidding, the mail-person drove all the way up the lane to MY house, and handed it to my while I was in the lawn trying to peen some stainless steel, which didn't seem to have any positive or negative effect, so I've literally only cut ONE bottle with a sharkalope, and I must say, it was a bit of magnificence. The sharkalope is still pretty beefy, overall, but it was such a clean and perfect cut,, the edge quality capability of the zombie tools product is unquestionably premium. It looks, feels, and cuts like a top shelf edge. It's in a category all its own considering my collection. Hands down, I don't have a competitor. I have other swords that can be plenty sharp and cut fully clean (with proper technique), but the sharkalope is a different animal than even a windlass sword. and windlass is on the top end of my blade capability spectrum once you step out of the cheapo budk swords. (interestingly things at budk are just sharper, but do feel like they won't handle the abuse of actual use,,, they feel like disposable blades that work excellent for a short while). once we are talking about "sword collector swords", ,,, I have either swords that bend really easily or swords that simply don't cut very easily no matter how sharp you try to make them,,,, and by now I'm confident enough in my sharpening consistency to place plenty of blame on the metal quality, be it temper or be it ,,,, well it can only really be the temper the steels are all close enough. and then what I'm getting at here, is that although YOU might argue whats the difference just go buy a good one,,, EYE am thinking something else, which is ok, but I have this one right here, just what CAN be done to make it work better?? Is there ANYTHING I can do to better up the edge?? to make it function better??? Technique is an avenue, which I gradually do explore, (and today, like every so often I do feel like I made progress in my understanding of swords and am using swords to greater effect as of presently),,, but there's more to life than technique, (don't agree with that statement?? please reference any discussion of quality for evidence), and it does seem like there should be some THING I can do to my steels that don't make me happy to improve my enjoyment of them , and sharpening is tried already. Hammering, though, is a tiny bit irreversible, and although I can certainly see the value in the experiment, experiments aren't cheap or so easy as "done" just because I sort of thought about it that one time for a minute over twix,,, so I don't see where I can be best served by having the thought, grabbing the sword, and pounding it until it's bumpy ,, unless it works for sure, and then really someone should know about it,,, things are like that. It's not likely I'm going to be the only one who had such an idea,,, in fact,,,,,,,,,I'm pretty sure the question of peening the edge of a sword must be an old question that constantly resurfaces as a result of there being a huge gap in the historical record. anyway,,, so what do you think>?? If I gum up some of the metal right on the edge, would it get a (albeit more soft and fragile) "better" edge??? It should still be ALMOST as hard as the rest of the sword, which should be still pretty hard, it being on the hrc scale at all. I mean plastic does NOT find itself on the hrc scale. Nice, enjoy that ZT...but if you hammer on it I'll slap ya. You can put a keener edge on it but you always run the risk of weaker, so you have to decide what you want.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jul 5, 2020 11:13:01 GMT
I'm telling you, you've got to beat the edge of the sword with the biggest hammer you can lay your hands on. Pound the living daylight out of the edge as hard as you can. It's the only way you're gonna learn about the proper way to own a sword.
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Post by tsmspace on Jul 5, 2020 12:11:41 GMT
well for the information of your ,,, my sharkalope ONLY arrived TODAY (on the 4th of july, no kidding, the mail-person drove all the way up the lane to MY house, and handed it to my while I was in the lawn trying to peen some stainless steel, which didn't seem to have any positive or negative effect, so I've literally only cut ONE bottle with a sharkalope, and I must say, it was a bit of magnificence. The sharkalope is still pretty beefy, overall, but it was such a clean and perfect cut,, the edge quality capability of the zombie tools product is unquestionably premium. It looks, feels, and cuts like a top shelf edge. It's in a category all its own considering my collection. Hands down, I don't have a competitor. I have other swords that can be plenty sharp and cut fully clean (with proper technique), but the sharkalope is a different animal than even a windlass sword. and windlass is on the top end of my blade capability spectrum once you step out of the cheapo budk swords. (interestingly things at budk are just sharper, but do feel like they won't handle the abuse of actual use,,, they feel like disposable blades that work excellent for a short while). once we are talking about "sword collector swords", ,,, I have either swords that bend really easily or swords that simply don't cut very easily no matter how sharp you try to make them,,,, and by now I'm confident enough in my sharpening consistency to place plenty of blame on the metal quality, be it temper or be it ,,,, well it can only really be the temper the steels are all close enough. and then what I'm getting at here, is that although YOU might argue whats the difference just go buy a good one,,, EYE am thinking something else, which is ok, but I have this one right here, just what CAN be done to make it work better?? Is there ANYTHING I can do to better up the edge?? to make it function better??? Technique is an avenue, which I gradually do explore, (and today, like every so often I do feel like I made progress in my understanding of swords and am using swords to greater effect as of presently),,, but there's more to life than technique, (don't agree with that statement?? please reference any discussion of quality for evidence), and it does seem like there should be some THING I can do to my steels that don't make me happy to improve my enjoyment of them , and sharpening is tried already. Hammering, though, is a tiny bit irreversible, and although I can certainly see the value in the experiment, experiments aren't cheap or so easy as "done" just because I sort of thought about it that one time for a minute over twix,,, so I don't see where I can be best served by having the thought, grabbing the sword, and pounding it until it's bumpy ,, unless it works for sure, and then really someone should know about it,,, things are like that. It's not likely I'm going to be the only one who had such an idea,,, in fact,,,,,,,,,I'm pretty sure the question of peening the edge of a sword must be an old question that constantly resurfaces as a result of there being a huge gap in the historical record. anyway,,, so what do you think>?? If I gum up some of the metal right on the edge, would it get a (albeit more soft and fragile) "better" edge??? It should still be ALMOST as hard as the rest of the sword, which should be still pretty hard, it being on the hrc scale at all. I mean plastic does NOT find itself on the hrc scale. Nice, enjoy that ZT...but if you hammer on it I'll slap ya. You can put a keener edge on it but you always run the risk of weaker, so you have to decide what you want. uh,,, I wouldn't try to do that,,,, I would only try it on edges that DON'T work well. ,,,, if the sword is getting sharp, then why would I benefit from doing something other than standard sharpening>?? anyway,,, that's NOT the story with every blade i have, although some of them are better than others. let me rewind. I have a bunch of cheapo swords. I even have a few that are literally just meant for costumes, but I got those on accident. SOME of them are embarassingly soft,, they are tempered soft. (ok, not tempered is probably a better description, but I imagine they HAVE a temper, just not a BLADE temper). ,,, SOME of the swords are described as "real swords", or "battle ready", but when I sharpen them they still don't work to cut. THey can cut milk jugs, but my other swords (take the zt for example) just cut automatically. Then some of them just DON'T get sharp. you literally lose the edge on ONE cut on paper. you FEEL the blade rubbing off while cutting the paper. (like the way you feel sanding remove the wood). SO,,,,,, for these "other than serviceable" blades,,, which may potentially cut with enough practice, I may consider trying to do some oddball things like peening them or blowtorching them just to see exactly what DOES happen. For example i have a seconds quality balaur arms 12th century arming sword with a twisted blade. I can't cut for shinola with it. I cut like, a shampoo bottle from how soft they are. Another example is a stainless steel costume gladius. I tried peening that today, jsut an inch of it, and I sharpened it after, and I noticed no change, it cuts paper (better than the balaur) just the same as the portions which I did not hammer on. I didn't hammer it very well, but the dang steel is actually harder I think than some carbon steels. I also have some ordinary mild steel stuff I made that I probably will try it more legitimately on. also I was thinking about cold-hammering some mild steel bar into a blade, and seeing how long that takes. well, one problem I have is the neighbors. I live in hawaii, which is very densely populated, and everyone is all close, and I stand next to a steel shipping container and echo into approx. 100 or so families dwellings.... I don't do it for very long or very often. it's like someones over my shoulder for every hit. therefore, , I thought i would talk about it first...... (the bar by now is pretty much scrap, so I can really do as I please)
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Post by tsmspace on Jul 5, 2020 12:13:33 GMT
Congrats to your ZT beast. Unfortunately I can't find anything to the rate how much harder steel becomes with hammer hardening. But since the discovery of quenching blades are quenched. Also the modern rolling process of steel before forging already has some of those effects. The best you can do to a sword edge outside a forge is reprofiling (thinner or with more meat/niku - just as you think you need it) and sharpening/polishing/stroping the edge. Forget hammer hardening of blades except for bronze swords that can't be quenched. hey so why are scythes peened and not just hardened the regular way?? is that because no one uses them anyway so no need upgrade or is there some logic to it beyond tradition??
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Post by tsmspace on Jul 5, 2020 12:14:04 GMT
I'm telling you, you've got to beat the edge of the sword with the biggest hammer you can lay your hands on. Pound the living daylight out of the edge as hard as you can. It's the only way you're gonna learn about the proper way to own a sword. I have to admit, that is technically my plan. maybe I should purchase a deepeeka just for it.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jul 5, 2020 12:20:01 GMT
Congrats to your ZT beast. Unfortunately I can't find anything to the rate how much harder steel becomes with hammer hardening. But since the discovery of quenching blades are quenched. Also the modern rolling process of steel before forging already has some of those effects. The best you can do to a sword edge outside a forge is reprofiling (thinner or with more meat/niku - just as you think you need it) and sharpening/polishing/stroping the edge. Forget hammer hardening of blades except for bronze swords that can't be quenched. hey so why are scythes peened and not just hardened the regular way?? is that because no one uses them anyway so no need upgrade or is there some logic to it beyond tradition?? Scythes have very thin blades and afaik they are quenched. The peening is to straighten the blade when it is curly or notchy and make it thinner before sharpening again. This happens very easily and the peening has to be redone from time to time because the blades are so thin. I just have read that the scythe peening also is work hardening indeed. On this sheet thin blade it makes sense because you have to sharpen and rework it so often anyway.
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