sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Jun 30, 2020 11:08:16 GMT
Hello,
It's been awhile since I made a thread.
So yeah, as the title suggests, I'm currently attempting to write a fantasy-esque story (recycling certain elements from the failed Legendary Swords website) but one of the defining themes of said story is advancing technology, outright avoiding medieval stasis. There will be magic and such so the technological advance would be different (somewhat) from reality.
My question is: how would you portray such technological advances within a story? Also, are there examples of existing fiction where technology does advance within the story?
Thanks in advance.
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Post by leviathansteak on Jun 30, 2020 11:55:10 GMT
The thing that comes to mind when magic is involved is: why innovate when you have magic that can do the necessary already?
Unless the technology is meant to oppose the magic, which would be interesting i think.
For fiction in which technology develops, how about the last samurai movie? Easy example i think.
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Post by demonskull on Jun 30, 2020 11:58:05 GMT
The Warlock in Spite of himself by Christopher Stasheff , The Coramonde Series by Brian Daley. The first has a advanced human traveling to a world where magic works and his companion id a robotic horse.
The second has a earthman devising a machine that will transport a limited amount of people/equipment to parallel worlds. After searching a bit he finds a world to travel to, where magic is possible but rare. He finds himself in a situation where he needs to call help from earth to combat a dragon. Being that his device has been confiscated they have to use magic to achieve the transportation of equipment. That's less than the first third of the first book. The principal characters are all unique and fresh and anything but stereotypes.
Another that comes to mind if Dies the Fire series by S.M. Stirling. An unknown event renders much of our technology inoperable: electronics, gunpowder fails to ignite, so people revert to early weaponry/tech. The central government collapses and smaller communities evolve. You end up with a bunch of different cultures based on what their resources are and their own knowledge and idiosyncrasies.
Then there are tons of books where people from high tech places find themselves in low tech places without the benefit of their high tech world.
As far as how to handle it, keep both uses limited. Knowledge of magic and technology should be kept to a minimum with years of study and experimentation needed to do advanced results.
Good Luck
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Post by soulfromheart on Jun 30, 2020 12:14:10 GMT
There is a video game named Arcanum that dealt with the rise of Technology as a contrary force to Magic (not that it was always that way). Think Victorian technological steampunk revolution meets "standard" fantasy setting and the new social, political ramifications it brings. Or Tesla Swords, missile deflecting hats, elephant guns, trains on time vs magic weapons and armors, fireballs and teleportation. Excel in one or balance the two. Great story.
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Jun 30, 2020 13:03:38 GMT
The thing that comes to mind when magic is involved is: why innovate when you have magic that can do the necessary already? Unless the technology is meant to oppose the magic, which would be interesting i think. For fiction in which technology develops, how about the last samurai movie? Easy example i think. Thanks for the feedback, but I gotta clarify what I meant by 'advancing technology' Since magic exists in the world, certainly any kind of historical progression that happens in that world would be different from ours. So instead of mutually exclusive (or diametrically opposing) magic and technology, we have magical technology ala the world of Eberron in DnD. Stuff like trains powered by electrical elementals, ships of iron whose boilers are driven by fire elementals, golems doing repetitive menial labor/factory work etc. As the story progresses, perhaps absurd magical technology like the ones you see in Final Fantasy XV start to appear. Now what I am looking for is how would I best portray a civilization (or multiple) going from 'Lord of the Rings sword-and-sandals' all the way to Eberron's magical technology and beyond. TL;DR: how would I best avoid Medieval Stasis
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 30, 2020 13:09:58 GMT
Oddly enough, your theme can bee seen somewhat in the new "Robin Hood" farce of a movie. The movie was total garbage, BUT, it could have existed in a world where there was no industrial revolution and technology from the middle ages slowly advanced to modern times.
You would then have repeating crossbows, clothing fashions with modern touches such as T-shirts and collared trench coats etc, and even explosions. All with a medieval flair.
Now, granted the movie has no magic to speak of, but I don' think it would be difficulty to insert a bit of it. At least it could be a starting point for ideas that you can work with.
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Jun 30, 2020 13:36:15 GMT
Oddly enough, your theme can bee seen somewhat in the new "Robin Hood" farce of a movie. The movie was total garbage, BUT, it could have existed in a world where there was no industrial revolution and technology from the middle ages slowly advanced to modern times. You would then have repeating crossbows, clothing fashions with modern touches such as T-shirts and collared trench coats etc, and even explosions. All with a medieval flair. Now, granted the movie has no magic to speak of, but I don' think it would be difficulty to insert a bit of it. At least it could be a starting point for ideas that you can work with. The one with Eggsy from Kingsman? I actually saw that movie and was horrified by the costumes they wear. I definitely could see the concepts in it as a starting point.
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Zen_Hydra
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Post by Zen_Hydra on Jun 30, 2020 13:55:25 GMT
The thing that comes to mind when magic is involved is: why innovate when you have magic that can do the necessary already? Unless the technology is meant to oppose the magic, which would be interesting i think. For fiction in which technology develops, how about the last samurai movie? Easy example i think. Thanks for the feedback, but I gotta clarify what I meant by 'advancing technology' Since magic exists in the world, certainly any kind of historical progression that happens in that world would be different from ours. So instead of mutually exclusive (or diametrically opposing) magic and technology, we have magical technology ala the world of Eberron in DnD. Stuff like trains powered by electrical elementals, ships of iron whose boilers are driven by fire elementals, golems doing repetitive menial labor/factory work etc. As the story progresses, perhaps absurd magical technology like the ones you see in Final Fantasy XV start to appear. Now what I am looking for is how would I best portray a civilization (or multiple) going from 'Lord of the Rings sword-and-sandals' all the way to Eberron's magical technology and beyond. TL;DR: how would I best avoid Medieval Stasis Terry Pratchett's Discworld setting has a lot of what you are discussing. Cameras have little imps inside them which paint portraits at incredible speed. The are golems which happily carry out the most repetitive and menial of tasks. Wizards and witches exist, but are highly constrained in what they can do with magic (for a variety of reasons). The whole of the Discworld is permeated by the fantastical, and the people living on it have had to adapt their technological advancements in somewhat circuitous paths around various magical complications. In my opinion, I think you need to define the scope, variety, and accessibility of magic in your setting before you can reasonably explain how non-magical technology would develop.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 30, 2020 15:17:28 GMT
Yeah, allmighty magic would kill technological advancing. I'd take a central thing for all tech and replace it with limited magic. I think of energy or power. Perhaps in a world without coal, petrol and gunpowder, just wood, but with some kind of magical batteries or explosives. This way you can make the technology advance similar to our world.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 30, 2020 15:23:41 GMT
I agree with Zen Hydra. A good fantasy/sci-fi story begins with cohesive world building. A fantasy world, like the real one, must have rules that govern it. It is necessary for believability, and also critical to the story telling. It's not interesting to have a story in which the natural laws of that universe can be broken at any time for plot convenience. Not having defined limitations removes all of the tension and consequences of a character's actions.
Some examples of good fantasy limitations:
Star Trek: Cannot beam through shields. Chronicles of Narnia/ LOTR: death is final.
Some examples of bad fantasy without limitations:
All Disney Star Wars movies (characters can instantly do whatever the plot requires which removes any tension or character development) MCU: nobody stays dead for very long (no consequences of actions).
If you make a world, it can have laser swords, flying steamboats, and magic and whatever you want, but it must have rules that limit a character's actions and define the parameter of that particular reality. This is the difference between a classic story like LOTR and throwaway stories that nobody will ever remember.
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Post by nerdthenord on Jun 30, 2020 15:36:53 GMT
The Witcher books appear to be dark fantasy on the surface but are actually science fantasy. One example of what you are looking for is when Geralt gets to use a top of the line gnomish steel sword instead of the old elvish sword he had taken from a tomb and had been using. It goes on length to show how that while the elvish sword was top of the line centuries before, the laminated steel blade of the gnomish sword was vastly superior thanks to advancing technology. It simultaneously takes down the lack of advancement common in fantasy and the super powerful tomb sword trope.
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Jun 30, 2020 16:15:53 GMT
I agree with Zen Hydra. A good fantasy/sci-fi story begins with cohesive world building. A fantasy world, like the real one, must have rules that govern it. It is necessary for believability, and also critical to the story telling. It's not interesting to have a story in which the natural laws of that universe can be broken at any time for plot convenience. Not having defined limitations removes all of the tension and consequences of a character's actions. Some examples of good fantasy limitations: Star Trek: Cannot beam through shields. Chronicles of Narnia/ LOTR: death is final. Some examples of bad fantasy without limitations: All Disney Star Wars movies (characters can instantly do whatever the plot requires which removes any tension or character development) MCU: nobody stays dead for very long (no consequences of actions). If you make a world, it can have laser swords, flying steamboats, and magic and whatever you want, but it must have rules that limit a character's actions and define the parameter of that particular reality. This is the difference between a classic story like LOTR and throwaway stories that nobody will ever remember. Thank you, I will keep this in mind and set limits.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 30, 2020 17:55:15 GMT
Indeed. A world MUST have set limitations, otherwise the characters will be all powerful, and natural laws can be changed at will to spirit a character out of a situation with no efforts.
I am thinking of Ant Man as a bad example of world building. It's stated that the technology used to shrink lessens the distance between atoms, thus reducing an object in size but maintaining it's original mass (meaning weight). Then the movie immediately breaks this rule that it just set by shrinking the lab, which should then maintain the same weight, but characters are able to easily pick it up and carry it around. Same with Ant Man himself- he shrinks, but is able to run up a gun barrel while the bad guy is still able to hold it steady indicating that Ant Man does not weigh 200lbs as he should. Most people won't notice this breech of natural law within the context of the story, but also most people don't remember the story at all. The natural laws of the world, and the rules of it's own technology, don't matter. Characters and events can do whatever they want without any hinderance.
Now imagine the movie adhering to it's own rules. Ant Man would have to always be mindful of his mass while in a shrunken state and there would be certain things he couldn't do because of it, like ride on a wasp as though it were a big bird. Nor would anybody be able to move the lab once it was shrunken, they would have to devise some way of moving the mass of a building- thereby rendering the idea of shrinking it to be of no value other than to deny it's use to normal sized people. You can build a great plot around that idea.
In any event, once you set the rules of your universe, you must stick with them as an inviolate constant, and construct the story and the characters to interact within those parameters. Writers do this all the time: for example, a magic user expends energy with each spell, so they can only use so much before they have to "recharge". This creates a problem for the characters in which they must now be careful how they use their magic and then use it only when they are sure it will create a positive outcome for them. With no limitations, every problem can now be solved with "magic", making the story and characters rather one-dimensional.
Anyway, off you go. Start writing something and see what comes out of the end of your pencil.
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Post by MOK on Jun 30, 2020 23:09:55 GMT
Terry Pratchett's Discworld setting has a lot of what you are discussing. Cameras have little imps inside them which paint portraits at incredible speed. The are golems which happily carry out the most repetitive and menial of tasks. Wizards and witches exist, but are highly constrained in what they can do with magic (for a variety of reasons). The whole of the Discworld is permeated by the fantastical, and the people living on it have had to adapt their technological advancements in somewhat circuitous paths around various magical complications. Not only that, the various technologies keep advancing and societies changing accordingly all throughout the series. There are several books that revolve around certain key inventions (e.g. Watchmen, Postal) and quite a lot of more lowkey stuff like the cameras and watches and PDAs that just keeps chugging along in the background as a constantly developing running theme. Plus all the advanced research and engineering going on at the High Energy Magic Building of the Unseen University...
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Post by Vincent Dolan on Jul 1, 2020 3:40:55 GMT
Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn comes to mind; he's nowhere near done with his full vision for the world, but the first trilogy takes place in a medieval world that has Georgian elements to it (which is a plot point, so I'll say no more), while the second series, which isn't finished, takes place in a very Victorian-themed setting with Wild West elements.
Sanderson's eventual plan is to write a second trilogy (Alloy of Law, the Victorian setting, is more of a 1.5) set in the modern day and a third trilogy set in the future, all with the world's various magics, integrated into the setting rather than going away.
You can somewhat see this in Alloy of Law, wherein Coinshots, people who can telekinetically push metallic objects away from them, become couriers, as their ability allows them to rapidly traverse a more modern city akin to Spider-man. Similarly, Soothers and Rioters, people who can calm or enflame others' emotions, are effectively banned from public office, though they're highly sought after as psychologists.
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sevicler
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Post by sevicler on Jul 1, 2020 12:00:51 GMT
Thanks guys. I will publish it in wattpad once it's passed final editing and share the link. You're more than welcome to read it and provide feedback. I'll read those titles you mentioned. Most of them seem really interesting, too!.
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