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Post by Tiers1 on Jun 24, 2020 3:21:47 GMT
I am considering a good deal on a high quality sword which is a 35 inch long spatha of the form of an Albion Pedite- so totally straight edges. I know that the Gladius worked well specifically within its system of Roman battle tactics, and was not necessarily a flexible-use sword...would a Pedite spatha be in a similar camp? Something tells me yes as non-tapering straight edges rather favor the thrust in exchange for weakening the weapon's handling and cutting ability...
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Post by MOK on Jun 24, 2020 4:19:50 GMT
Depends on everything else! If the blade has no profile taper but tapers aggressively in thickness, it's in fact probably far more geared towards cutting than thrusts...
In any case, similar blades remained in use all over Europe all the way through most of the Viking Age, so I think it's safe to say they are indeed good even outside Roman battle tactics.
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Post by rheims on Jun 24, 2020 18:14:34 GMT
Not at all an area of knowledge I'm familiar with to speak with confidence, but looking at the reach disadvantage, the major issue would be if you are willing to invest in a shield or the time to learn its proper use in tandem with a shield. The shield is the only thing that negates that reach advantage that most weapons will present in my opinion, not necessarily that it wouldn't work 1 on 1 in a duel, you will need something to help you close/breach the distance without a formation (which again is/was largely based on the shield). I believe if you are within striking range of the Gladius, this is a weapon that would do well by virtue of it's ability to cut and thrust in extremely close range while the longer weapons fail to generate nearly as much leverage and momentum without the space. A good bash with a shield, or even having a weapon glance off of it, could give you a good amount of time to allow you to tear into an opponent. Sadly without a shield, you're better off with a pole-arm or trusty long sword. That's more to the fighting aspect of the weapon outside of the legionnaire setting.
If you are looking for it more as a backyard cutter and love its aesthetics, I know there are videos that recommend specific ones that actually cut tatami very well and are super light (though I haven't seen one for the Albion version). I do like the idea of the Gladius in doors as it would actually move quite well in comparison to longer swords that would bang against walls and ceilings etc.
Edit: Bad typos
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Post by rheims on Jun 24, 2020 18:28:29 GMT
I am considering a good deal on a high quality sword which is a 35 inch long spatha of the form of an Albion Pedite- so totally straight edges. I know that the Gladius worked well specifically within its system of Roman battle tactics, and was not necessarily a flexible-use sword...would a Pedite spatha be in a similar camp? Something tells me yes as non-tapering straight edges rather favor the thrust in exchange for weakening the weapon's handling and cutting ability... Crap, I misread the question, it's about Spatha, as a traditional Cavalry Blade, I would think it's cutting would be great and thrusting actually not as good as the gladius. My bad T_T.
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Post by alexkjren on Jun 24, 2020 19:18:05 GMT
Yes, the Spatha is primarily a cutting sword. Not that it can't thrust at all, it's just not optimized for thrusting. As far as the transition goes, there are currently 2 main explanations that I've read about.
1) Earlier period Roman armies tended to use very tight cohesive formations and tactics with very large shields and so the Gladius was the optimal size sword for that type of fighting. While later in the Empire, Rome wasn't able to field such large and extensively trained armies. To make up for this reduced training and being forced to do more with fewer men, both the shields got smaller (lighter and easier to carry on the march) as well as the swords became longer to gain more reach in this different fighting style.
2) This one's a bit more complicated but here goes: During earlier periods, the majority of the Roman military was composed of Southern and Western Euoropean peoples, initially Italians and later incorporating Celts and Iberians. The Gladius style sword was actually adopted from the Celto-Iberians hence the name "Gladius Hispaniensis" (hopefully I didn't butcher the spelling). In addition to weapons, the "iconic" Roman helmet of the late Republic and early Empire was actually adopted from helmets the Celts used.
As we proceed to the later Roman empire, more and more of the Roman military was composed of Germanic/Scandinavian "barbarians." The Germanic people's swords tended to be longer even before they began to be recruited/hired into Roman armies. So this explaination goes that as the ethnic/cultural demographics of the Roman military changed, so did the weapons, equipment, and tactics.
Ok, hopefully that made sense. I'm not saying it's one or the other of these explanations. Plus I've oversimplified both of these for simplicity's sake. For all I know, it could have been a combination of both.
Good luck, Alex
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Post by kloborgg on Jun 25, 2020 22:26:28 GMT
Isn't the Pedite a Pompeii gladius, and not a spatha?
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 29, 2020 12:32:04 GMT
The short answer is that yes, the Spatha was a very good sword. Just look at a Spatha and compare it to a Viking blade. I think it's obvious that the Viking blades (which were among the best anywhere in the world), are the children of the Spatha. That basic design was in use for some 5-600 years, give or take? And that was through the hard times of the decline of the Roman Empire, the Dark Ages, and so forth. So if it was a junk design, I think it would have been very quickly disposed of in favor of something else.
I would feel confident in a fight with a Spatha, or it's Viking love child.
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on Jun 29, 2020 16:07:31 GMT
In principle the Celtic longswords from 500 BC were spathae and the Viking swords up to 1000 AD too, 1500 years or more.
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Post by RufusScorpius on Jun 29, 2020 17:14:21 GMT
Sure enough. Any sword design in use for that long must have work extremely well. A spatha is next on my list for future purchases.
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Post by nddave on Jul 2, 2020 3:40:06 GMT
Look at the Geibig Typology and you'll see the Type 1 of the late Migration is a clear evolution of the Spatha. It's just sword evolution through the centuries. Once they were able to forge longer iron and eventually steel arming swords it was a given.
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