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Post by stevezz1 on May 22, 2020 13:43:56 GMT
Hi All, I have just bought my first sword, I usually collect WW2 German bits, but i have always wanted an 'old' sword and i saw this at an auction so i bid and won it. The hammer price was £180.00 but the auction premium brought that up to £230.00 It was described as a Victorian Military dress sword with an engraved steel blade made by Smith and son of Chester. I'm assuming the cypher on the handguard is VR (Victoria Regina) although it is pretty hard to make out..... So i have a couple of questions..... The engraving is very feint, is there any way of bringing it back.? Would there be any regiment identity marks on it or were they all just generic issue? It looks like the brass handguard has been polished and there is some 'gunk' in the cypher, should i clean it out with warm soapy water or leave it alone..... And, for it's condition, did i pay a 'fair' price for it...? Many thanks for any help.... Steve.
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Post by Jayhawk on May 22, 2020 20:10:05 GMT
I'd clean it with a damp cloth first to just get any gunk off it but then run an oiled cloth over it. Looks like someone may have used Brasso or another brass cleaner on it. As for price, and lot depends on the condition of the blade, the grip, how tight things are, etc. Having an original scabbard increases price, too.
That said...how cool is it to have a Victorian sword?
Eric
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Post by berntk on May 22, 2020 20:26:08 GMT
Smith & Son, Chester would possibly be the retailer, and not necessarily the maker. You should look for the maker's mark, there were several. This was normal for officers' swords, as the officers had to supply their own equipment, and often bought it all from the same outfitter. If that's not present, or too worn away to read, a closer picture of the proof slug would help. I can't really help you any further, as 1) I'm not an expert, 2) my books are packed for moving. Anyway, a Gothic-hilted Victorian sword at £230 is probably a very good buy! The sword looks rather nice, and it seems you got the scabbard as well.
Congratulations are in order!
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Post by stevezz1 on May 23, 2020 21:32:43 GMT
Thanks Eric and berntk, It does have a scabbard, which i think is original. It has a few dings and about 95% of it's paint. Everything on the sword appears to be nice and tight, no rattles.... It appears that Smith & Son of Chester were outfitters and i can't see a makers mark anywhere.... The proof slug reads PROVED with another smaller 'p' Thanks for your help. I took some better photos...
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Post by berntk on May 23, 2020 22:58:48 GMT
Hoping that a real expert chimes in here, but that proof slug rhymes pretty well with what I have seen presented as made by Pillin. They were one of the absolute top makers. I was a bit confused by the first photo until I realised that the "rug" to the right actually is the leather washer Grats!
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Post by stevezz1 on May 24, 2020 10:38:29 GMT
:-))
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Post by pellius on May 24, 2020 13:13:50 GMT
Congratulations on a nice sword.
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Uhlan
Member
Posts: 3,121
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Post by Uhlan on May 24, 2020 15:28:09 GMT
Very nice indeed. I am a nutter for Gothic hilts. Member Victorianswords should be able to tell you more. He's the expert on all things British. He's here: victoriansword.tumblr.com/You did clean up the hilt already? Watch out you don't scrub off the gild. Cheers.
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Post by stevezz1 on May 25, 2020 7:34:39 GMT
Many thanks to everyone for helping out a complete novice, it looks like i have been very lucky with my first sword purchase.
Thank you Uhlan for the pointer to Victorianswords.
:-)
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Post by victoriansword on May 27, 2020 23:33:41 GMT
Thanks for the “ask” on Tumblr. I replied there, but I’ll share my reply here, too:
First, congratulations on your first Victorian officer’s sword! You have a nice example of the Pattern 1845 Infantry Officer’s Sword.
As others have said, the retailer (not the maker) was Smith & Son of Chester. Pillin did use the P proof disc, but so did other makers in Britain and Germany. Yours might be by Pillin, but it might also be a German import blade. The scant info I can find on Smith & Son turns up two examples that they sold that had German blades, and one (a Patent Solid Hilt) that was made in Britain.
Without knowing the exact dates Smith & Son were in business, I would guess that your sword dates to the 1860s or maybe 1870s.
What is the metal underneath the paint on the scabbard? Steel or brass?
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Post by stevezz1 on May 28, 2020 10:32:41 GMT
Hi, Many thanks for the information. Is there no way of distinguishing a British blade from a German blade and was there a difference in quality...? Would the etching/engraving on the blade be an 'optional extra' and were there various designs?
The scabbard looks like it's made of brass.
Thanks again.
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Post by victoriansword on May 30, 2020 18:45:40 GMT
The easiest way to tell if a blade is German is if there is a maker name or stamp on the blade. In the absence of that, it can be difficult. Etched blade decoration was pretty standard and would not have been an extra. There were extra etching options, like having ones initials, crest, regimental device, battle honours, etc. that could added to the standard etching for an additional cost. The decoration on your sword blade is typical of P1845 blades.
Brass scabbards were for officers of field rank, so Majors and up.
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Post by stevezz1 on May 31, 2020 19:21:28 GMT
Thank you very much..... :-)
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