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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 0:44:52 GMT
Consider this an informal poll of sorts. The question is: is there a replica saber on the market that is okay? I understand this is a relative term, but I would just like to get a sense of some modern saber replicas that are actually okay. I cannot afford the antiques, but I want to own a replica or two that is not a bad representation of the original. Maybe they don't handle exactly like the original. Perhaps they are a little blade heavy. Perhaps the brass isn't as thick. I get it. Surely there are a few replicas on the market that are not outstanding, but are not absolute crap either. Are there any replicas that are okay? Please only respond in a positive or neutral manner. I am recently interested in modern military sabers and the like. To my eyes, it would appear the replica market needs some work. Having said that, I'd like to receive positive or neutral feedback for a change. So let me have it.
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Post by pellius on May 19, 2020 0:58:52 GMT
The Princess of Wales saber enjoys a strong reputation. I owned one, and thought it was pretty nice, with fast precise handling. It was a bit high maintenance to keep clean and oiled, but rewarded the effort with a great look. kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=USS157btw, some historical sabers aren’t all that expensive, with solid examples slotting in between Windlass and Del Tin prices. fwiw.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 1:00:18 GMT
I don't know any antique dealers I can trust, which is why I am asking about replicas, but thanks for the feedback.
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Post by randomnobody on May 19, 2020 1:33:56 GMT
So many antiques dealers out there, but none you can trust? Is it a location thing, or have you been burned by all of them already?
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 19, 2020 1:34:22 GMT
That's more or less the reason I stay with replicas too. Very important is the difference between infantry and cavalry sabers. Cavalry sabers in general are longer, heavier, less agile but more "impressive". Replicas in general are heavier and less well balanced than the originals afaik, which increases the problem of cavalry saber replicas. My Windlass 1906 seems to be one of the best cavalry saber repros, still in production but discontinued by Windlass in US. I can recommend it. My Cold Steel 1860 (1840) is the bigger brother, a huge monster but I like it. The Windlass 1860 Union Officers is terrible. My CS USMC NCO saber is an agile infantry saber.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 19, 2020 1:35:16 GMT
No Edit: Can't reply in a positive aspect; and neutral would still be skating deception for me.
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Post by Jordan Williams on May 19, 2020 1:36:47 GMT
I don't know any antique dealers I can trust, which is why I am asking about replicas, but thanks for the feedback. Feel free to PM me on any prospective purchase regarding an antique. Even if it's just "is this fake?". I like eBay for getting antiques as well as private deals.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 1:38:43 GMT
I honestly don't know any antique vendors.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 2:14:41 GMT
It is all a bit subjective. The twenty questions start with "what are you going to do with it?" I bought my College Hill to save from cutting with period spadroons and after some filing, it came to suit me fine until I found a budget sound 200 year old sabre for cutting. One of the two cutlasses I bought was an absolute ringer of a book example. I made the mistake of loaning it out and the replacement was horrible in comparison. They had "fixed" the "problem" some felt the first batch had, when they got it right the first time. Good luck finding this one again (or getting that first one back). That is my entire experience with reproduction early modern sabers aside from a friend's British 1796 lc. To me, it was not horrible before he stared grinding and only marginally "better" (imo) after he took some forward mass away. it did cut mats more easily. Here is an old, un-updated bookmark folder. There will be dead links and others one can find (or fix a link, or ) docs.google.com/document/d/10mTa7aEnE1Ch8hNkAPa7EQJq7R5tO1AakugPZDlmzB8/edit?usp=sharingI never bookmarked total crap, or questionable sellers but a few have pulled a semprini aka bon er or two (unintentionally, I'm sure). I should redo that, as some are gone forever. We done got old. The list is just a tip of the iceberg. So What are you going to do with it? What is your budget? What appeals to you? Rinse and repeat. Cheers GC
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Post by Dave Kelly on May 19, 2020 2:58:51 GMT
The latest version of the Cold Steel M1840 saber is actually a viable piece. Don't know who is doing the blades, but the handling is quite good.
the cold steel Britsh 1796 cav saber was 2.4 lbs and percussive. Some forges did make their early model that robust.
India forged blades are hit and miss. Blade temper is a crap shoot. Some of their stud are great for display. The older moders are badly. overbuilt
Empire Costume in Dinant has a lot of blue and guilt blades. A replica of a 4-8,000 saber has it's place.
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Uhlan
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Post by Uhlan on May 19, 2020 7:33:55 GMT
Problem is that most replicas are made from too thin stock. We've been talking and moaning and b!tching about it for years now. And taper. B!tch, b!tch, b!tch! With this in mind none of the replicas are 100%. They're all compromised, but some fare better than others. Princess of Wales does relatively speaking fine and the Guinhut French Dragoon is much better than the one Armae (old Weapon Edge) had in my opinion, but it may have been a one off for all I know. Christus Imperat also was not bad really. The Guinhut blue and gilds are in a class of their own. Costume pieces.Those you don't buy for cutting, but to look at and play a bit with. Whether they have good balance and so on is secondairy I think, though I am under the impression Guinhut is working on that too. Problem with replicas is that the market doesn't give a hoot about taper and balance. They never heard of that stuff. Forges buy standard steel in the 4 to 6 mm class and have to special order if they should want thick stuff. At least that is what I hear. Special order drives up the price and in this throat cutting environment that could be suicidal.
There is nothing like an antique though. I try to get that into peoples heads by not saying if asked ,, this one did about X $'', but by saying ,,about X Windlasses''. And dealers are not that bad. Most want you to come back and build a good relationship over time. Look at the pictures, Google the hell out of it so you know what's what and why not and when still in doubt post it here and see what happens. And lose the greed. That will kill you. Greed makes one do very stupid and costly things. Buying antiques is for me about learning things. About the sabre in question, history and myself. There is nothing like holding an old M1822 instead of a Cold Steel M1860 or whatever. Amen.
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Post by Sir Thorfinn on May 19, 2020 12:43:37 GMT
May I humbly suggest an antique Argentine 1898 Cavalry saber? I got a rusty one for 100.00, and a near perfect one for about 280.00 (USD) Are you stuck on US/Euros? If not, Windlass makes a nice shamshir, so does Cold Steel. (At least from reviews, never held one)
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 13:18:21 GMT
Sent you a PM, Thorfinn. I will share with the others what I shared with you: I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel replica-wise. I don't have the Princess of Wales saber, and shame on you all for recommending a replica no longer in circulation (I'm kidding, of course). I could also pay for a decent antique what it will cost to ship a sword to the US from Empire Costume.
I have the Cold Steel 1796 British light cavalry saber, which has measurements within historical parameters. Jordan Williams modified the crap out of it for me and it could now chop off heads and limbs with ease, although it's no longer a 1796 in appearance. What makes this such a good sword is that Cold Steel actually OVERBUILT the blade. One can improve a replica by taking off material, but you cannot add material in order to improve it. For example, I just bought the 1860 Union light cavalry saber by Windlass. As a costume piece, it's perfectly adequate. As a functional sword, it's not too bad. It's a bit too springy, but the tempering is excellent. It just isn't meaty enough. One grips it and wonders, "Where's the beef?" I also have the Windlass shamshir, which was modified by Jimbo Curry into a karabela. It's not thick enough at the base and it's not thin enough in the foible, but it's ALMOST accurate. Rounding the replicas off, I have the Windlass 1840 Ames NCO sword, which was also modified by Jordan. It's a super nice replica and feels so deft in hand.
So unless I can get my hands on a Princess of Wales, I'm rather at the end of the line here, unless the Indian forges decide to special order thicker steel stock.
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AndiTheBarvarian
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Post by AndiTheBarvarian on May 19, 2020 13:43:21 GMT
My 1906 starts with 8 mm, not bad for a repro. A thick base with strong distal taper and or good fullers isn't something I'd called "meaty", it's the opposite I think. My 1860 Union Officers is "meaty", 6 mm at base, not big taper, flat fullers, all dead weight in the blade.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 13:46:18 GMT
Ahh, yes. The 1906, yet another replica that has been discontinued. I would love to have a 1906 or a Princess of Wales, but... discontinued. I'm not bitter mind you (yes, I am), but those are the two standouts in a world of blah.
I have heard decent things about the 1860 Union Officers sword, and they tended to be a bit slimmer than your average trooper's sword, so 6mm is not too shabby, but I think they were designed for bling and status more than function. I might look into it. I think some people complain that the casting is inferior.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 13:47:59 GMT
You're right, Andi. It shouldn't be, "Where's the beef," it should be, "Where is the engineering?"
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Post by pellius on May 19, 2020 16:08:05 GMT
I didn’t see that the PoW saber was discontinued. It does tend to sell out fast, though.
KoA currently has a discounted “munitions grade” example available, and a google search returned a number of vendors on both sides of the Atlantic (judging by the currency used in their pricing) that report having them in stock.
They also turn up in the classifieds periodically.
I’ll also echo Sir Thorfinn; the Argentine 1898 trooper saber is a delight to handle. If you are okay with the cosmetic disappointment that comes with the defacing of the national crest, fully functional solid examples are relatively common and quite affordable. (The unmolested versions are kinda rare, and climbing fast in price).
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 16:41:24 GMT
Ahh, yes. The 1906, yet another replica that has been discontinued. I would love to have a 1906 or a Princess of Wales, but... discontinued. I'm not bitter mind you (yes, I am), but those are the two standouts in a world of blah. I have heard decent things about the 1860 Union Officers sword, and they tended to be a bit slimmer than your average trooper's sword, so 6mm is not too shabby, but I think they were designed for bling and status more than function. I might look into it. I think some people complain that the casting is inferior. kultofathena.com/product-mg.asp?item=USS157
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2020 16:43:45 GMT
I see it, edelweiss. Thanks also to pellius. Does one take the plunge on a munitions grade model?
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Post by pgandy on May 19, 2020 17:16:21 GMT
Like edelweiss says “what are you going to do with it”? I assume just a GP sabre. I find cavalry sabres not to my liking as they are heavier and less nimble. That being said:
Princes of Wales is well put together and feels solid in the hand. They use EN9 steel, or have been, and I question the hardness. I have a hardness testing kit somewhere out there in never-never land. The last known location is Miami. And I’ll know more whenever it arrives. Their P1796 Sergeant’s sword with the same metal seems a bit soft to me.
Windlass’ M1860 Officer Model leaves a lot to be desired as comes. I’ve customized the grip and thinned the foible to 2.9 mm and plan to thin more. The PoW and the M1860 now handle similarly and in my case with the M1860 and modified grip feels more comfortable to my hand. With the completed modifications it handles much better and not the turn off it was. It is a good cutter. I got it from ACC on sale at $90.
Universal’s M1902 sword is a delight to handle but not a strong cutter but will out thrust the M1860. This version has a spear point which is not regulation but gives point much better. I did see an original on ebay that was unsharpened but at some time the owner changed the asymmetrical tip and Universal’s looks much like that one.
Windlass’ M1840 NCO sword is also a delight to handle and the Ames version comes with a leather sheath that won’t dull the edge as fast as steel. It too is not a strong cutter. This and the M1902 handle much alike but the grip on the M1902 is more comfortable with more hand protection. The M1902 is slightly better at cutting and the M1840 NCO is slightly better at giving point.
The best of my lot is CS USMC NCO sword. It’s dandy. There are two versions out there, one has the official USMC etching and is the hardest to find. The other has its etching modified as Thompson failed to get approval for the first ones and these were made to remain within the law. If I had one of those I’d remove the etching and extend the cutting edge. That one should be a gem dandy.
I hope this helps.
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